Shadows' Lethal Strength Drain

[FreeTheSlaves]

If you want to you could transplant another credible scenario and get similar results. I.e. four full strength 10th level characters in a dungeon, the rogue is distracted by opening a lock. 4 silent Shadows attack, win initiative, bash the Cleric, and she's dead.

That is why I sighed when I explained the specific situation. It has proven to be a distraction to the discussion of the rules.

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The shadow is CR 3. I would expect it to not have an attack form that is only marginally less effective when it faces much higher level PCs. The attack form should be significantly less effective, much like the Orc greataxe example we were presented with earlier. The Orc greataxe could do 50 odd points of damage but the chance would be miniscule - 5% of 5% of 1/12th.

The shadow retains a high level of effectiveness due to its attack targeting an effective hp (the str score) that does not improve so swiftly with level. And this attack form threatens this lower effective hp total via a touch AC that is much harder to improve than the main AC.

In short, the shadow has an effective attack independent of of it's CR. That, in my opinion is a fine example of a poorly constructed rule, although it also brings the CR rule into question.

 

[Shin Okada]

If you want to you could transplant another credible scenario and get similar results. I.e. four full strength 10th level characters in a dungeon, the rogue is distracted by opening a lock. 4 silent Shadows attack, win initiative, bash the Cleric, and she's dead.

I agree with you that shadows and other incorporeal monsters are threat to even high-level parties, comparing to other monsters of same CR. But I can point out several things for that situation, too.

1. DM should not be lazy and roll initiative for entire bunch of monsters. If all the monsters in a encounter acts in the first turn at once and concentrate attacks on one PC, it is always dangerous. Experienced DM should take effort to roll initiative for each monsters or maybe each 1/6 -1/4 of the monsters in a certain encounter.

2. 4 CR3 Shadows, is an EL 7 encounter. If the encounter is started intentionally by the DM at when the rogue is distracted, it will at least raise the EL to 8. Maybe other environment, which favores shadow (like very narrow dungeon corridor and the incorporeal shadow were waiting for their victim within a wall), it can be EL 9 encounger and if PCs are very unlucky (no one noticed the shadow, and a low touch AC character was happen to be standing in the nearest position to the shadows, etc.) it may happen.

3. Their attacks are still not automatic hit. 10th-level cleric with even dex of 8 should have touch AC slightly better than 9 (with ring of protection and such). 11 could be a reasonable number I say. Now shadow's attack bonus is only +3, need 8+ to hit. So amongst 4 shadows, 1 or 2 will likely to miss. 2d6-3d6 is 7-10.5 in average and usually clerics have higher str (they do melee, don't they). 14 or 16 is popular. Maybe she is lucky she already has a pair of gauntlet of ogre power and now have enough strength to withstand those attacks for at least 1 round.

4. Shadows are Int 6 monsters who cannot talk (read MM). If they are taking well-coodinated umbush tactics and immediately finding the most vulnerable target and then concentrate all of their attacks by their wits alone, the DM is not role playing them appropriately.

 

[Nifft]

In order for the shadow to be equally effective against a 3rd level Cleric and a 9th level Cleric, the particular Cleric must have neglected his touch AC. Shadows have a +3 to hit, and only one attack. If the Cleric has...
- a Deflection bonus (magic circle vs. evil or shield of faith or a Ring of Protection);
- an armor bonus that's due to a [force] effect (mage armor);
- Ghost Touch armor;
... then he's going to be a harder target.

The 9th level Cleric is also more likely to have a Strength boosting item or spell.

The 9th level Cleric should have a higher Spot check (to detect the hiding Shadows), and should also have a better source of illumination -- more light spells at the very least, but possibly also daylight or Sunrods or similar. Possibly someone has cast darkvision.

Assuming the high-level Cleric survives the attack, he's quite likely to dust the Shadows with a Turn attempt. His 3rd level contemporary couldn't do that.

And last but not least, 4 x CR 3 = EL 7. That's an encounter which should tax a 9th level party a bit.

I don't think the encounter is just as deadly at high level as it was at low level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Drowbane]

Crit Happens.

No sympathy.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Thank you FranktheDM, a good solid bit of rules analysis.