Shamans (MONGOOSE) vs Shamans (GREEN RONIN) - Anyone's experience yet?

[hong]

Y'know what else would be an interesting comparison: if Green Ronin's shaman stays more within the framework of existing core classes, then how does it compare to the Oriental Adventures Shaman, which does the same thing?

I'd be interested in such a comparison as well. Going from Psion's and Simon Collins' reviews, it looks like the two classes have quite a bit in common, although they draw from different sources.

(On a sidenote, does Simon Collins post to these boards at all?)

 

[Psion]

Y'know what else would be an interesting comparison: if Green Ronin's shaman stays more within the framework of existing core classes, then how does it compare to the Oriental Adventures Shaman, which does the same thing?

The OA Shaman works a lot more like a cleric with a spell list revised to talk about spirits.

The OA shaman has very cleric-like abilities - like turn/rebuke undead and spontaneous casting, minus the armor abilities, plus martial arts and a few spirit related abilities. Its spell list is similar to the cleric's, but with some spells that deal with "spirits". In OA, spirit is a newly defined subtype that is applied to many OA creatures and that you can apply to certain other core creatures to adapt them to OA; basically the shaman is written for the meta-setting assumptions of OA.

The SH shaman is a bit more like the Shugenja in that it is basically a divine sorcerer. The can't pick from the entire shaman spell list but may cast them spontaneously. They know a limited amount of spells, but over the course of levels get more domains/spirit allies. The spirit allies are more nescessary, though, since their known spells are more limited.

The SH shaman does not have the turn or rebuke undead ability; instead it has the rebuke spirits ability. This works like the rebuke undead ability, but applies to creatures that the SH calls spirits -- outsiders, elementals, and incorporeal creatures. This is very broad, and possibly too generous -- demons are typically more powerful than their HD indicated. But at least it fits the SH shaman into an existing setting without too much hassle (personally, I give all outsiders turn resistance equal to either their HD or charisma mod.) The SH shaman rebuke ability also works against shamanic magic as dipel magic. Essentially, I think this takes the SH shaman a step towards the "more faithful" representation and a bit away from the familair cleric archetype.

All three versions of the Shaman associate domains with specific spirits. OA gives a few new domains, SH gives only one. ED:S give a ton of new domains. Domains are really the most easily interchangeable aspect of the system. Even if you go with the OA or SH shaman, you can use the ED:S shaman's domains.

P.S. No hong, Simon doesn't post to these boards, which is probably why he writes reviews faster than me.

 

[johncolossus]

integration

So Psion
As you have suggested have you started on integrating both the shamans? If so will you post it.......I agree that getting the best of both will be my way forward having read more of them now. I prefer the more roleplaying aspect of the MOngoose spirit interaction and also the simplicity of the domains. Will you use all domains from all sources as potential spirit powers?

(Wonder what Fey Magic will be like from Mongoose?)

 

[Psion]

Re: integration

So Psion
As you have suggested have you started on integrating both the shamans? If so will you post it.......I agree that getting the best of both will be my way forward having read more of them now. I prefer the more roleplaying aspect of the MOngoose spirit interaction and also the simplicity of the domains. Will you use all domains from all sources as potential spirit powers?

I am not so sure how productive you will find my ideas, since I intend to make the decision based on my group and my campaign directions.

Currently, I am running a large group (7-8 players) in a fairly typical fantasy world; I know that most shamans would hail from the culture on the eastern end of the continent. Accordingly, what I will probably do is:

1) Use the SH Shaman as a basis. The rebuke spirits ability would make the SH shaman a valuable asset to a standard party when facing creatures defined as spirits
2) But use the ED:S shaman's class skill list. I really dislike new skills unless there is a good reason for them... thre isn't.
3) Use all of the ED:S domains. That's a no brainer.
4) Use the ED:S spirit template. It's a lot more detailed.
5) Use the rest of the stuff from the SH.

If I had a smaller group where I had more time to role-play spirits, or if I was starting a new campaign where I could define things from the outset, I might use the ED:S shaman as a baseline. I have even toyed with the idea of making a world where I chuck out all the spellcasters and replace them with ED:S shamans and Psions.

I am planning an OA campaign soon. I am not sure what I will do there. Though I don't like the OA shaman as much as the other two, I think it would be a better fit to a wuxia-esque campaign.

2)

 

[hong]

How flexible are the prestige classes in these books? One of the problems I've found is that a lot of the priestly PrCs in books like DotF or MotW don't really work well with shamans (the OA version, that is). They're really designed for clerics and/or druids, or at least to fill roles that clerics and druids would be expected to fill.

 

[Psion]

How flexible are the prestige classes in these books?

The ones in the Shaman's handbook don't nescessarily assume you are using the shaman core class, which is nice... but it is hard to qualify as a dreamer unless you have access to the skill. But if you give the skill to another class, you should be fine.

The ones in ED: Shamans either are different ways of approaching shamanism using the same rules or are intended for shamans.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

ED: Shamans sounds similar to the shamen presented in the Diomin d20 setting. Anyone know how they compare?

 

[johncolossus]

diomen shamans

Biggusgeekus (love the name)
Have you actually seen this version? If so can you post a summary so we on here can compare.
As anyone reading these threads may gather, I really like the idea of shamans as core DnD classes and their concepts. I think roleplay wise they add a lot.
As to Psion's suggestion of incorporation, I personally prefer using the ED version as a base but I agree it needs more preparation. I think the new spells in ED compared to SH are weaker. The Guardian Spirit can be any creature the DM and player decide as opposed to being fairly prescriptive as for the SH familiar which is similar to arcanr familiars but with a spirit template. ED stops abuse of the guardian spirit by having no affect on the physical plane until the shamen is of high level such as the shapechange ability.
Well until I can get to fully play a shaman as opposed to DM......

 

[Aven]

I thought 'sod it' and got em both, I would agree with Psion in his mini-review above.

So now you've spent large quantities of money on two books. i certainly hope there are a lot of shamans in your game....

I just can't bring myself to buy extremely specific books like this, they just never seem to get enough use to justify their price, no matter how cool they are.

 

[ax0n]

Shamans sounds similar to the shamen presented in the Diomin d20 setting. Anyone know how they compare?

The Diomin shamans were just awful. O bought Diomin specifically because of the shaman class, and was thoroughly disappointed with the whole book, but specifically the shamans. There were too closely tied to the setting and the mechanics were too clunky.

If you guys are interested in shamans you can download free shaman and spirit magic rules at www.netbookofplanes.org They are in the downloads section. Not only are these rules FREE they are also OGC. What are you doing go get it!

Thanks for the word-up KChagga. I'd be interested to see what people think about out spirit magic in comparison to the published versions. With the Netbook of Planes Spirit Magic we created a completely new system. Instead of casting spells, shamans compel indidividual spirits to act on their behalf, cast spells, attack other spirits, in a Pokemon style of play. Its a bit more complex, but we're working on simplifying the system.