Shaman's Spirit Companion Questions

[Obryn]

Customer Service on that thread I linked to says they are... but Customer Service answers often feel like they're throwing darts at a corkboard labeled "yes/no".

Doh!

In that case, change my answer to "I completely disagree with custserv and have no idea where they are getting either answer." Again, if errata changes it, that's dandy. As it stands, though, I will go with what I think are the clearly-correct answers.

-O

 

[fba827]

3) Also regarding conjurations in general (PHB page 59), I see that conjurations share the defenses of the person who summoned them. What about defense conditionally modified by feats? For example, if I summoned a conjuration that could provoke opportunity attacks, and if I had the Defensive Mobility feat (PHB page 194), would my conjuration gain +2 to AC against opportunity attacks that it triggered by moving?

3. Your conjuration would gain the benefit as well.

You know, I asked the EXACT same question about summoning. I realize this is a conjuration instead of summoning but the wording about defenses is the same for both.
But in response to my question, I was told "no" by customer service.

I'll chalk it up to some difference between conjurations and summons and leave it at that. But just wanted to mention it since I saw the response that you had received...

 

[DracoSuave]

You know, I asked the EXACT same question about summoning. I realize this is a conjuration instead of summoning but the wording about defenses is the same for both.

Actually the wording is different.

A summoning has your defenses, without temporary modifiers, whereas a conjuration has your defenses, all temporary modifiers included.

So if your spirit companion is granting adjacent creatures +1 AC, then if you are adjacent to it, the spirit companion would benefit from it. If a summoning granted adjacent creatures +1 AC, then it would -not- recieve that bonus if you were adjacent.

As for the OA question--Nothing in either Spirit Companion nor Conjuration says that it triggers OAs or that it is a creature. So, you refer to the rules regarding effects. If you move a zone beside a player, does that trigger an OA that permits them to potentially attack the zone? Does Mage Hand trigger an OA? Can you OA a fireball (as opposed to the user)?

The reason there is confusion is because people are assuming it is something that it is not. Honestly.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Are there updated rules to conjurations that says they no longer can be objects or creatures? The entire way the power is worded screams that a creature was conjured. If so this would solve many of the issues people are having. If not, then that's cool, I was just wondering.

 

[DracoSuave]

Conjurations never were creatures. If they were creatures, they'd say 'this is a creature' in the same way summonings do.

 

[Kinneus]

As for the OA question--Nothing in either Spirit Companion nor Conjuration says that it triggers OAs or that it is a creature. So, you refer to the rules regarding effects. If you move a zone beside a player, does that trigger an OA that permits them to potentially attack the zone? Does Mage Hand trigger an OA? Can you OA a fireball (as opposed to the user)?

The reason there is confusion is because people are assuming it is something that it is not. Honestly.

Two things:
1.

Normally, a conjuration cannot be attacked or physically affected.

Zones, Mage Hand and Flaming Sphere are all examples of 'normal' Conjurations that cannot be attacked or physically affected. Spirit Companions, however, can be attacked or physically affected. They are different. They are still Conjurations, yes, but they are obviously an exception to this rule, and the Conjuration rules themselves are silent on the subject of opportunity attacks, specifically.
So the answer to your rhetorical question is: "No, those things cannot be attacked by an OA, because those things cannot be attacked, period. But that has no bearing on a discussion of Spirit Companions, which explicitly can be attacked."

2. I think at least part of the reason people are confused is because Customer Service has gone out and explicitly said that, yes, they can be the targets of OA, while people like you continue to say, no, they can not be the targets of OA, because they are Conjurations.
At least you, unlike Customer Service, offer some rationale behind your ruling, so I consider you a step ahead. But I don't think it's fair to be dismissive of those still confused by the issue; it is hardly an open and shut case.

 

[DracoSuave]

Two things:
1.
Zones, Mage Hand and Flaming Sphere are all examples of 'normal' Conjurations that cannot be attacked or physically affected. Spirit Companions, however, can be attacked or physically affected. They are different. They are still Conjurations, yes, but they are obviously an exception to this rule, and the Conjuration rules themselves are silent on the subject of opportunity attacks, specifically.
So the answer to your rhetorical question is: "No, those things cannot be attacked by an OA, because those things cannot be attacked, period. But that has no bearing on a discussion of Spirit Companions, which explicitly can be attacked."

Actually my rationale is that OAs are triggered by creatures that do certain actions. Spirit Companions are not creatures, and therefore cannot trigger those certain actions. If the OA were triggered by objects that do certain actions or 'objects or creatures' then I'd say that spirit companions do.

It's the same as a Pendulum trap's attack, it swings past, and if it were a creature it -would- trigger OAs for that movement. However, it does not because it's not a creature. Objects do not trigger OAs.

Being targetable by MBA is irrelevant because it's not the basic attack that's the point of contention, but the trigger itself.

2. I think at least part of the reason people are confused is because Customer Service has gone out and explicitly said that, yes, they can be the targets of OA, while people like you continue to say, no, they can not be the targets of OA, because they are Conjurations.
At least you, unlike Customer Service, offer some rationale behind your ruling, so I consider you a step ahead. But I don't think it's fair to be dismissive of those still confused by the issue; it is hardly an open and shut case.

They've also said that Area and Close attacks can affect a spirit companion when the Conjuration rules + spirit companion rules do not permit it, and only permit Melee and Ranged attacks.

Either there's going to be some errata/clarification/updates coming down the horn, or the CS people you're talking to are assuming it's a creature in the same way a beast companion is.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Conjurations never were creatures. If they were creatures, they'd say 'this is a creature' in the same way summonings do.

Except it does...

CONJURATION

Powers that have the conjuration keyword create conjurations, objects or creatures of magical energy.

Now, that is not absolutely definitive of anything, but given the description of a spirit companion and its overall 'creature-like' functionality, it is sure no reach to say that a conjuration IS in fact subject to the rules of creatures when no other explicit rule overrides them.

Since that statement admits of only 2 possibilities, object or creature, and there are almost no rules specific to objects, we can't really assume there is a difference between a creature and an object either.

In any case WotC CS has issued a whole slew of answers on the subject. While they are not the final word and as usual aren't 100% consistent the general tone of their answers seems to go in the direction of the SC working like any other combatant in cases where nothing is specified. Thus they have ruled SC are subject to OA pretty consistently for example.

 

[DracoSuave]

Except it does...



Now, that is not absolutely definitive of anything, but given the description of a spirit companion and its overall 'creature-like' functionality, it is sure no reach to say that a conjuration IS in fact subject to the rules of creatures when no other explicit rule overrides them.

That statement also covers Flaming Sphere and Mage Hand and we go right back to that. It says that a conjuration -can- be a creature, and that's not in contention. If a specific power says a conjuration is a creature than it is and follows those rules.

However, Call Spirit Companion is not one of those powers and therefore the assumption cannot be made that it is anything but a power just like any other.

Since that statement admits of only 2 possibilities, object or creature, and there are almost no rules specific to objects, we can't really assume there is a difference between a creature and an object either.

A creature and an object are two different things, which is enough. OAs are triggered by creatures, and without a trigger you can't take actions out of turn. Being an object is not sufficient to trigger an OA.

In any case WotC CS has issued a whole slew of answers on the subject. While they are not the final word and as usual aren't 100% consistent the general tone of their answers seems to go in the direction of the SC working like any other combatant in cases where nothing is specified. Thus they have ruled SC are subject to OA pretty consistently for example.

There's one more point against OAs for spirit companions.

Spirit companions do not take actions, they are moved by an effect. They do not take move actions, nor -any- action. Contrast with beast companions which take move actions simultaneously. Compare with conjurations that also can be moved and use the same language and terminology.

Let's face it, the rules exist for having a creature and using powers through the creature, as evidenced by the ranger. The spirit companion doesn't use rules even -close- to that.

Besides -all- that... if a spirit companion were a creature, then it would have a basic attack, as -all creatures have melee basic attack-. Nothing in its description says it does not.... so if it's a creature, where is its MBA?

Creature-like functionality doesn't even apply to a spirit companion. It cannot run, it cannot shift, it does not respond to terrain, it doesn't even acknowledge wall powers that block movement.

It can act as the origin point of your powers, and has effects when people are adjacent to it, and a monster can pop-it if they get a good hit on it. That's all it does. That's not a creature, that's an over-glorified spell effect.