Shapechange, Awaken and Animal Growth

[Saeviomagy]

Masters of the Wild (p. 37) clarifies that awaken changes an animal into a magical beast, so technically, animal growth no longer works on the creature.

Yeah, that'd be that piece of text of p.37, which states the fact 'in passing' as it were, which is neither mentioned in the original awaken, nor in the reprint of the same text in the mass awaken spell, which is found in the same book. In addition, it means that an awakened animal would cease to be subject to about half of the druid's buffing spells, which I believe is the reason that it was never actually changed in that way.

Normally, it wouldn't be a problem - most people couldn't care less if their animal companion has an int of 5 or 500. Only when added to shapechange does it become a significant problem.

I'd suggest changing the shapechange spell so that the caster gains the advantages and disadvantages of the type, but doesn't actually change type. If he can actually change type, there are many many more ways that the spell can be abused, the use of animal growth being the primary (can you imagine a shapechanged animal growthed frenzied berserker? He takes twice his normal BAB, and turns it into 2 points of damage per point! Or how about a tenser's transformed wizard shapechanged and animal growthed?).

Might I ask, why you would want to actually become a smart baboon?

First it makes role play dificult, and the wizard turned into a baboon would not be able to cast spells with the verbal componant anymore. Only due to the fact that the baboon could not pronounce the appropriate syllables that are required for the verbal componant spells. Unless the spell was actually a baboon created spell. Highly unlikely!

Of course the awaken spell doesn't actually cease once the target reverts to being 'humanoid' again - he still has an extra 2 hd, extra intelligence and extra charisma.

Also note that druids actually get shapechange as a spell too, so it's not out of the question for a druid to do this to himself.

personally, i wouldn't allow it. Awaken takes an entire day to cast and the wizard couldn't hold his shape for that long. at some point during the casting, the druid would lose his target...

No. The druid simply has to make an infusion of the awaken, et voila, it casts in a standard action.

 

[Dark Dragon]

I remember some paragraph in the MM that states: An animal has an INT score of 2 or less...So, after that ruling Awaken won't work on a shapechanged animal type wizard. The problem I see is that Shapechange wouldn't allow to get the animal type then (because each wiz / sor / drd has an INT of over 2).
Damn, another clarification needed

 

[Li Shenron]

I have checked the SRD, but I wonder if there is any errata about it.

So, Shapechange works similar to Polymorph Other, but among the differences it changes your type to the new form.

Well, if that's the case, I am afraid I feel we're having serious problems. Since nothing is specified, I assume that in regards of Ability Scores it works just like Polymorph Other, that is you KEEP WIS, INT and CHA scores, but at the same type you're turned into an Animal, which CAN'T HAVE INT greater than 2.

If you were in my game, I am sorry I won't let you cast Awaken on the Wizard: the spell is expressely meant to raise an Animal (or tree) to humanlike sentience, and actually it does give a bonus to Cha but NOT to Int. The Awaken animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, if ever I let you cast it on a human shapechanged into an animal, this would replace the Wiz intelligence, and very very probably it will LOWER its original score.

...actually, where did you get that +21 Int from? I can't understand it...

Anyway, I seriously wonder if there is a FAQ about the fact that Shapechange changes your type. Of course it is supposed to be used to improve yourself, not to penalize, and turning into Dragon type gives benefits, but definitely not turning into Animals or Vermin. And since mental abilities are completely unaffected, you can't be subject to spells that affect only <3 Int creatures (which are usually not even roleplayed at all); ok Awaken doesn't specify that, but since all animals have 1 or 2 Int... I also doubt that if you Shapechange into a Golem you're not subject to mind-affecting spells.

Please someone tell me that your Type don't change!!!

 

[Pielorinho]

A couple of points:
-This tactic, which is obviously way-unbalancing, requires a newly-researched spell. This is the most obvious place for the DM to put the kibosh on it: simply don't allow a spell that instantaneously changes one's type to animal.
-Although I agree that awaken can technically be empowered in the way you describe, I think this goes against the spirit of the rules. The intent is to give the animal a standard humanoid INT score, not to raise its existing score. I'd say that the 3d6 is an explanation of how one derives a standard humanoid INT score, and that empowering doesn't affect it. This would be a house rule, of course. Given that I play the only druid in either of our D&D groups, I think I'd not be biased in this rule.
-Technically, animals have an INT of 1 or 2, and so either folks can't gain the animal type through shapechange, or else when shapechanging, folks gain the INT of the animal they change into. I'm inclined to the latter. Someone in WOTC made a suggested compromise, which we use in my campaign: there's a new type called Magical Animal, which applies to any animal with an INT score of greater than 2. Most spells which affect animals work on such creatures, with the notable exception of awaken: this means you cannot cast Awaken multiple times on the same creature (which is another rules-hole). A character who shapechanges into an animal would gain the type Magical Animal, and be subject to the spell animal growth but not to awaken.

The main point, however, is that this is an unbalancing trick that uses a combination of a rules-loophole and a custom spell designed specifically to exploit the rules-loophole. I'd recommend that your DM disallow this combination, and that you not pursue it.

Daniel

 

[Stalker0]

This is very much a munchkin tactic, although a very well thought out and planned one, I certainly wouldn't have thought of it!!

In this one, go with the rule 0 power smackback clause- no tactic should be a god tactic that would increase your power by so much!!

 

[Kraedin]

The easiest way to deal with it is the ECL system. A race with 2 magical beast hit dice, with +16 Int and +4 Cha, in addtion to the normal human qualities, is going to have a rather hefty level adjustment.

Nothing screws over primary spellcasters like a level adjustment.

 

[dkilgo]

Actually, you are wrong. According to Awaken, the targeted animal gets to speak one language chosen by the druid, plus one per positive intelligence modifier, so this is in fact no problem.

Role playing is part of the idea: The wizard will pose as the druid's animal companion, and therefore seem less of a threat than if there was a person strolling by his side.

Actually, you are wrong, yet right. I do appologize about my slip on the languages bit. There I said it!

You are wrong on many levels, but those levels have already been explained by mostly all of the people following your quoted post.

Sorry, life goes on....

 

[Li Shenron]

...so does everyone believe that the shapechanged Wizard CAN receive an Awaken spell? Am I really alone on the dark side of this thread???

 

[dkilgo]

I am sorry, but I do believe that this will have to be an emphatice no.

 

[Dark Dragon]

...so does everyone believe that the shapechanged Wizard CAN receive an Awaken spell? Am I really alone on the dark side of this thread???

Nope, you are not. I won't allow it, too. It's just silly power play...