Shapeshift druid vs regular druid

[Rkhet]

When given lemons, make lemonade.

DM forcing this shapeshifting druid option on you? go for monk x/druid 1/warshaper 4.

 

[MarkB]

Yeah. The lack of access to Natural Spell is not much of an issue to a druid who can shift back and forth as a swift action, and the fact that your type remains humanoid is huge when thinking of enlarge person and other such spells.

Under the current Alternate Form errata, you retain your base type when wildshaping, too, so this isn't an issue.

 

[BogusMagus]

What do you think of giving (actually, not removing from) the Shapeshift option the Animal Companion?

Too good at lower levels?

 

[ForceUser]

When given lemons, make lemonade.

DM forcing this shapeshifting druid option on you? go for monk x/druid 1/warshaper 4.

...which says to me, it's a viable alternative to wildshape.

 

[Cactot]

...which says to me, it's a viable alternative to wildshape.

Not really, its one thing nerfing wildshape, its another to remove the animal companion as well... tossing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. Also you shouldnt HAVE to take 2 other classes to make the ability worthwhile.

Also the fact that the stat bonus is an enhancement bonus, as well as a bonus to only one stat, we arent sure if wild/wildling items work with it or not, and natural spell for sure doesnt work.

IMHO to fix it:
As far as i can see, if they got str/dex/con bonuses, like a bear warrior or a lycanthrope, and if they were unnamed non-enhancement bonuses, that would fix that. They also need more forms, of a larger variety of sizes, as many of the utility forms have no equivalent with shapeshift. Allow wild/wilding equipment, and allow natural spell. Oh yeah, and give them the friggin animal companion back. I am not asking for a melee powerhouse, just somebody that can not fall over in two rounds of combat because of a horrendously low staying power. Perhaps it would also be good to have the forms each improve their attack routine/stats as the character levels.

Otherwise a druid with an average dex would have a whopping 20ac or less in their alternate form until level 12, when it would go up to 24, with no way to improve it. Thats a sure way to ensure that no druid in that form goes anywhere near combat.

Question 2:
How would this variant mesh with the master of many forms, as one of the primary classes that relies on wildshape?

 

[Rkhet]

...which says to me, it's a viable alternative to wildshape.

Nerf the wildshape, and all you've got left is a cleric with crappier spells, no turning, no domains and no spontaneous cure spells. Only time I'd take this class is for a one-level dip to qualify for Warshaper (and while this nets me a powerful melee guy, it's nothing like the intended class concept). Any other time, I'd just go for cleric.

 

[Gestalt]

When given lemons, make lemonade.

DM forcing this shapeshifting druid option on you? go for monk x/druid 1/warshaper 4.

Thank goodness they made my treasured shapeshifting monk character concept more viable. Pity about the druid.

In all seriousness, that does make it easier for me to make a horrible shapeshifting tentacled creature with just 1 level of Druid. I can just add in Abberation Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Deepspawn. When combined with the Warshaper's Morphic Reach it can tear somebody apart with tentacles and a bite attack from 15 ft away.

In addition, because of the flexible appearance of predator form it could change into a slimy mass of tentacles and teeth instead of a boring old wolf.

 

[ForceUser]

Not really, its one thing nerfing wildshape, its another to remove the animal companion as well... tossing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. Also you shouldnt HAVE to take 2 other classes to make the ability worthwhile.

Seems like I'm in the minority opinion here. I think shapeshift is perfectly viable for a single-classed druid. And personally, I'd let him regain an animal companion with a feat.

It is true that wildshape is a more powerful ability. No doubt about it. And to me, that's part of the problem with the druid. Between spontaneous summoning, animal companions, great nukes, good heals, good hps, good saves, full spellcasting, immunity to poison, alter self at will, and wildshape (not to mention the other sundry abilities), the 3.5 druid is too good. So yes, I'm for toning down some aspect of the class, and wildshape is a good place to start. No question about it, shapeshift is not as powerful as wildshape. And from where I'm sitting, that's a good thing.

 

[Cactot]

Seems like I'm in the minority opinion here. I think shapeshift is perfectly viable for a single-classed druid. And personally, I'd let him regain an animal companion with a feat.

It is true that wildshape is a more powerful ability. No doubt about it. And to me, that's part of the problem with the druid. Between spontaneous summoning, animal companions, great nukes, good heals, good hps, good saves, full spellcasting, immunity to poison, alter self at will, and wildshape (not to mention the other sundry abilities), the 3.5 druid is too good. So yes, I'm for toning down some aspect of the class, and wildshape is a good place to start. No question about it, shapeshift is not as powerful as wildshape. And from where I'm sitting, that's a good thing.

So now he is down a feat and still significantly weaker than a standard druid. I cannot say that i understand why some people feel the overwhelming need to nerf the druid, i would love to see an example of a single class druid that overshadows a fighter in melee using standard wildshape.

A dire bear, which you can get at lvl 12 and is one of the better standard forms has 2 claws doing 2d4+10 each, and a bite at 2d8+5. You could probably get that up to 2d6+17 and 2d10+11 after a full suite of buffs, not bad. I cannot fathom making a fighter, pure or otherwise, at that level who would not be significantly stronger than that, as well as having tons of options in the combat, aoo's, trip, sidestep, etc... The fight wouldnt even be fair, the only time the druid would stand a chance would be if there were very limited magic items in the game, and he could only use feats from the PHB or SRD.

 

[ForceUser]

So now he is down a feat and still significantly weaker than a standard druid. I cannot say that i understand why some people feel the overwhelming need to nerf the druid, i would love to see an example of a single class druid that overshadows a fighter in melee using standard wildshape.

A dire bear, which you can get at lvl 12 and is one of the better standard forms has 2 claws doing 2d4+10 each, and a bite at 2d8+5. You could probably get that up to 2d6+17 and 2d10+11 after a full suite of buffs, not bad. I cannot fathom making a fighter, pure or otherwise, at that level who would not be significantly stronger than that, as well as having tons of options in the combat, aoo's, trip, sidestep, etc... The fight wouldnt even be fair, the only time the druid would stand a chance would be if there were very limited magic items in the game, and he could only use feats from the PHB or SRD.

I don't agree that a shapeshift druid is "significantly" weaker than a wildshape druid. On what premise do are you basing this argument? The fact that the druid loses racial bonus feats? Racial skills? Special qualities? Access to magic items? Those four things, taken together, are what make both the polymorph line and wildshape too good.

I agree that a single-classed fighter is going to be better at fighting than a single classed druid, regardless of level. But that doesn't mean a druid's fighting is bad; quite the contrary. I think our single point of contention is the fact that a druid, as it stands, is "too good." I feel he is, you feel he isn't. As long as neither opinion changes, there's no point in continuing this debate.