Share Your Thoughts On My Warlock Houserules

[Justin Fike]

Patron spells automatically known and a once per long-rest slot dedicated for them. I like this. Yes, it's a buff, especially in number of spells known, but I think it's a flavorful one and not overly powerful. If asked to tone it down a notch you could make one spell on the list is free, which also gives more room for different warlocks of the same pact to play differently. Actually, I think I like that - you get one patron spell per level as a bonus spell known, but if you have Pact of the Tome you get both.

I like that! Choose a spell from the patron list at each level that you can cast 1/long rest. The issue I have with just adding spells to the spell list is that, by and large, most of the spells that really *feel* like that patron just aren't mechanically strong enough to compete with core spells like Hex, Darkness, etc. With limited slots, the essential spells will still end up being cast. My goal here was to equip Warlocks to casts "non optimal" Patron spells without feeling bad about it. I get that this is a power increase for the class since it's more spells per day overall, but I think it works.

I still prefer the change to how Invocation gained spells work. Invocations are arguably Warlocks strongest feature. They are the most flexible way that a character defines what their Warlock does. This way a player can "specialize" their Warlock as a spell caster by investing Invocations in additional spells like Bane and Slow once per long rest, but doing so means they lose out on utility or power options in exchange.

I've been persuaded on the CHA to hit and damage. It's too strong and not really needed. At this point my baseline for Pact of the Blade is Medium armor and shield prof gained at lvl 3, multi-attack gained at level 6, Pact weapon feature can apply to two weapons of the same type to enable dual wielding. That's enough of the essentials to allow a Bladelock to function without multiclassing if that's what the player wants, and if they want to specialize in melee combat further then multiclassing is the best way to do that.

So that means removing the three added invocations since they're no longer needed, which helps cut down on bloat anyway.

And [MENTION=6801461]Draegn[/MENTION] I heartily approve of any efforts to make Warlock's patrons have a real, in-game impact and consquences. If you've found a way to do that that is fun for your players then I say roll with it. Without having seen one of your games I'd be worried about making a Warlock player afraid to use their powers. In my game I ask my Warlock players to work with me on creating a bio for their Patron just like they do for their character (his/her/its history, personality, and goal) and then I find ways to apply that to the story. I love having a Warlock in the party because if I have a plot hook or quest that I really want them to explore I can usually find a way to tie their patron's desires into it. It's not railroading if its still player story choice, right?

 

[ad_hoc]

I think you went too far.

Giving more spells known with patron spells is okay.

Giving an extra spell slot, even just refreshing on a long rest, is way too much.

I think it is a bit too much to make the spell invocations 1/long rest. I would limit the Warlocks to only 1 such invocation at a time.

Blade Pact is also way too much. Warlocks basically get 2 mini-subclasses. Their Patron and their Pact. Yes the Blade Pact as written isn't very powerful, but none of the pacts are powerful. I can see Medium Armour Proficiency but that is as far as I would go.

I think you vastly underestimate the power of Warlocks. For that matter I think a lot of people do. Yes their spell slots are limited but they are also all the highest level available. This is why I think Hex is overrated. Agonizing Blast before 5th level is also overrated.

I love the Warlock design. I don't want them to be like regular casters which is what it looks like you are trying to turn them into. Only much more powerful.

 

[neogod22]

This is why you have heroes. It gives them a chance to stop the results of wanton power use. The "warlock" also has the option of using or not using the granted powers. A "warlock" can also find a way to break free of pacts before the being his pact was made with appears.

Ok think about this. A Demon lord makes 1000 warlocks at a time. Every time they cast a spell there's a cumulative chance he can enter the plane. It's not a question of if a godlike creature can enter, it's when, and that when is a very short time. Your suggestion makes warlocks unplayable, because who wants to play a character who can never use their powers? If you're in a town and discovered, the whole party would be killed. Sure a character may think he made a deal with a balor, but the reality is, warlocks can get 9th level spells. Who they really made a pact with, is the demon lord the balor serves.

This is why you have heroes. It gives them a chance to stop the results of wanton power use. The "warlock" also has the option of using or not using the granted powers. A "warlock" can also find a way to break free of pacts before the being his pact was made with appears.

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[Justin Fike]

These are all fair points and completely valid. As I said at the start of my post my goals were to change some things about the way Warlocks feel and operate for my game, I'm not trying to argue that they're sub par or unplayable at all (probably my favorite class as a player). If you like Warlocks as they're printed then very little of these changes will be relevant, and that's fine .

Personally I still think that even from your point of a view the change to the Invocation spells is still needed. As written they are ridiculously useless compared to basically every other Invocation option. If a player wants to invest their Invocations in adding 1/long rest spells to make themselves a bit more castery at the expense of utility or power options I don't see why that is such a bad thing. It's not like any of the Inovation spells are horribly OP options to begin with. But again, not trying to argue this should be 'canon'. That's the great thing about table top, every GM can determine their own approach.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[ad_hoc]

These are all fair points and completely valid. As I said at the start of my post my goals were to change some things about the way Warlocks feel and operate for my game, I'm not trying to argue that they're sub par or unplayable at all (probably my favorite class as a player). If you like Warlocks as they're printed then very little of these changes will be relevant, and that's fine .

The problem is that your rules don't just change how the Warlock plays. They vastly increase the Warlock's power. If you don't think they are underpowered to begin with, then you must agree that your rules are making them overpowered.

Personally I still think that even from your point of a view the change to the Invocation spells is still needed. As written they are ridiculously useless compared to basically every other Invocation option. If a player wants to invest their Invocations in adding 1/long rest spells to make themselves a bit more castery at the expense of utility or power options I don't see why that is such a bad thing. It's not like any of the Inovation spells are horribly OP options to begin with.

You are correct that using an invocation to add to their spells known in a limited way is underpowered.

Giving them extra spells per day is powerful. It isn't at the expense of power options, it is one.

I am not sure what the correct answer is. Someone suggested replacing them with an invocation that gives 3 new spells known which could include any of those. I think that would be a fine invocation.

My leaning is to make 1 curse invocation where you can choose one of those spells with the exceptions of polymorph and conjure elemental. You can then cast that at your spell slot level 1/day. I would suggest this over your change to avoid overshadowing the utility invocations and overpowering the Warlock in general.

 

[neogod22]

Once you get past lvl 10, the warlock spell pool increases dramatically. You get your 3rd 5th lvl slots at 11 and your 4th at 17. Not only that but you get your mystic arcanums every other level until 17. Add that to all of the at will spells available, the once a day invocations are not a factor in your overall spell casting. They don't need to be separate slots.

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[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I think that Warlocks in general have some issues, great in some combination with another class (or two) but not so great on their own. That's a bit more true for Blade. Giving Bladelocks too much makes them the best, requiring the other Pacts to be improved in a never ending cycle until everyone is a Warlock.

Some rules modifications that I favor: ..................................................

Most important, a change from Short Rest to Catch Your Breath: Every character gets to catch his breath up to two times before needing to take a Long Rest to refresh them. It takes one action to Catch Your Breath in combat, or can just be declared between combats. When you Catch Your Breath, you get the canonical effects of a Short Rest. This Catch Your Breath mechanic replaces the Short Rest mechanic. (This restores the balance between classes that favor long versus short rest mechanics, and empowers players with more play choices.)

All Warlocks: Eldritch Insight at 20th level replaces canonical capstone. Once per long rest, your deeper understanding of the true nature of reality allows you to cast Wish, but only to duplicate the effects of any spell 8th level or less.

All Warlocks: You get all the Patron spells.

All Warlocks: Any invocation that canonically grants you one spell per long rest but requires you to use a Warlock casting slot can now be cast once per long rest without consuming the slot. Furthermore, you can also cast this spell by using a Warlock casting slot (but not from another class' spellcasting feature) as often as you like.

New Invocation, Pact Armor (blade only): You may attune to a set of magical or non-magical armor, without using one of your 3 attunements. You are now considered proficient with this specific set of armor. If the armor normally must be attuned, you also gain the usual benefits.

New Invocation, Relentless Endurance (all): You gain proficiency with Constitution saves. When you fail any saving throw, you can consume a Warlock spell slot to reroll that saving throw. The second result is final.

All Warlocks: When you cast a Mystic Arcanum, instead of casting the usual Warlock spell you can cast any Warlock spell whose level is lower than the Mystic Arcanum, as though using a spell slot whose level equals the usual level of the Mystic Arcanum. This counts as using the Mystic Arcanum, which is refreshed after a long rest, as usual.

New Invocation, Ritual Master (Tome, Warlock level 11): Your tome is now considered to hold all rituals whose level is equal to or less than the level of your best Mystic Arcanum. If you lose your Tome, you can replace it by spending an hour appropriately modifying any book to serve as a vessel for your insights.

New Invocation, Shared Destiny (Chain, Warlock level 15): When either you or your familiar take damage, you can either split the damage evenly between you and your familiar, take the full damage yourself, or have the familiar take full damage. This choice is made after the final damage has been inflicted on the original recipient based on his saving throws, resistances, vulnerabilities, situational modifiers and other considerations, and is not further modified.

I also think that Warlocks can do with one or two extra invocations over their span, but this should be more than sufficient to keep players wanting Warlock 20.

Anyway,

Ken

 

[Harzel]

Most important, a change from Short Rest to Catch Your Breath: Every character gets to catch his breath up to two times before needing to take a Long Rest to refresh them. It takes one action to Catch Your Breath in combat, or can just be declared between combats. When you Catch Your Breath, you get the canonical effects of a Short Rest. This Catch Your Breath mechanic replaces the Short Rest mechanic. (This restores the balance between classes that favor long versus short rest mechanics,

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you have 'balanced' them by virtually eliminating the difference between them. That doesn't seem like a very interesting method of balancing. Why not just make all short rest abilities into long rest abilities with 3x the uses and be done with it?

On a somewhat less contentious note, I'm curious about how you see short rest recharge and long rest recharge as being unbalanced. Do you think one has the advantage, or do you just dislike that they are different?

and empowers players with more play choices.)

More in some ways and less in others. For instance, they are now limited to two short rests per long rest. Also, the decision to take (or not take) a short rest is less consequential, so it is in some sense less of a choice.

 

[neogod22]

Hi,

I think that Warlocks in general have some issues, great in some combination with another class (or two) but not so great on their own. That's a bit more true for Blade. Giving Bladelocks too much makes them the best, requiring the other Pacts to be improved in a never ending cycle until everyone is a Warlock.

Some rules modifications that I favor: ..................................................

1.Most important, a change from Short Rest to Catch Your Breath: Every character gets to catch his breath up to two times before needing to take a Long Rest to refresh them. It takes one action to Catch Your Breath in combat, or can just be declared between combats. When you Catch Your Breath, you get the canonical effects of a Short Rest. This Catch Your Breath mechanic replaces the Short Rest mechanic. (This restores the balance between classes that favor long versus short rest mechanics, and empowers players with more play choices.)

2.All Warlocks: Eldritch Insight at 20th level replaces canonical capstone. Once per long rest, your deeper understanding of the true nature of reality allows you to cast Wish, but only to duplicate the effects of any spell 8th level or less.

3.All Warlocks: You get all the Patron spells.

4.All Warlocks: Any invocation that canonically grants you one spell per long rest but requires you to use a Warlock casting slot can now be cast once per long rest without consuming the slot. Furthermore, you can also cast this spell by using a Warlock casting slot (but not from another class' spellcasting feature) as often as you like.

5.New Invocation, Pact Armor (blade only): You may attune to a set of magical or non-magical armor, without using one of your 3 attunements. You are now considered proficient with this specific set of armor. If the armor normally must be attuned, you also gain the usual benefits.

6.New Invocation, Relentless Endurance (all): You gain proficiency with Constitution saves. When you fail any saving throw, you can consume a Warlock spell slot to reroll that saving throw. The second result is final.

7.All Warlocks: When you cast a Mystic Arcanum, instead of casting the usual Warlock spell you can cast any Warlock spell whose level is lower than the Mystic Arcanum, as though using a spell slot whose level equals the usual level of the Mystic Arcanum. This counts as using the Mystic Arcanum, which is refreshed after a long rest, as usual.

8.New Invocation, Ritual Master (Tome, Warlock level 11): Your tome is now considered to hold all rituals whose level is equal to or less than the level of your best Mystic Arcanum. If you lose your Tome, you can replace it by spending an hour appropriately modifying any book to serve as a vessel for your insights.

9.New Invocation, Shared Destiny (Chain, Warlock level 15): When either you or your familiar take damage, you can either split the damage evenly between you and your familiar, take the full damage yourself, or have the familiar take full damage. This choice is made after the final damage has been inflicted on the original recipient based on his saving throws, resistances, vulnerabilities, situational modifiers and other considerations, and is not further modified.

10.I also think that Warlocks can do with one or two extra invocations over their span, but this should be more than sufficient to keep players wanting Warlock 20.

Anyway,

Ken

Ok, I've numbered your points and will give my opinion on the numbers to save time.

1. Not needed. If necessary, you can take more than 2 short rests in a day. Why would you create a mechanic that essentially does the same thing but limits how many times it can be done?

2. Idk why you would replace 4 5th level spells for one, but as the game goes, NO ONE can recover 6th-9th level spells which would make this ability too powerful.

3. Good idea.

4. Too powerful. Warlocks don't need more spell slots.

5. Is this any armor? Would the attunement be like the Pact weapon where it can be summoned on and off at will, or does it just grant proficiency? I think making the attunement not count against your total attunements, if it's magic armor that requires attunement makes it too powerful.

6. There is a pact ability that already does something similar. I don't think this will be popular.

7. Warlocks can already do this.

8. There's an invocation thst already does this. Rituals does not go past level 5, and you can always replace your book by meditation.

9. OK, this isn't WoW. Your familiar doesn't have many HP. If it takes damage, it's going to die, especially at high levels, so this is useless.

10. Maybe. The level 20 ability is pretty powerful if you think about it. Recovering your spell slots without needing a rest is pretty good for those situations when you're on a time crunch and can't afford to take a short rest. Idk if 2 more invocations will make a warlock too powerful or not. It probably won't unless you're talking about giving extra spell slots from #4. Then it's way too powerful.

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[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you have 'balanced' them by virtually eliminating the difference between them. That doesn't seem like a very interesting method of balancing. Why not just make all short rest abilities into long rest abilities with 3x the uses and be done with it?

I'm not offended.

The big difference is that an action really matters during a combat. Just turning short rest abilities into 3x abilities makes it much easier to unload everything in a single combat. Spending an action to refresh is expensive: Refresh or Eldritch Blast? Combats are usually short enough that this matters.

The cost encourages players to rest between combats... but the option allows them to push on when necessary.

On a somewhat less contentious note, I'm curious about how you see short rest recharge and long rest recharge as being unbalanced. Do you think one has the advantage, or do you just dislike that they are different?

The issue that I have is that short vs long rest abilities are, in theory, balanced around two short rests per adventuring day.

This ideal is rarely actually achieved. Sometimes, the PCs are permitted to take short rests whenever they like. More often, the PCs are discouraged from taking short rests, either for dramatic tension or by "well, if you rest then the NPCs get to regroup too" or various other 'subtle' and 'realistic' reasons. In either kind of game, the balance point is not achieved. Without explicitly putting effort into balancing long and short rests, which is effort taken away from other aspects of creating and running a game, a GM is very unlikely to achieve 2 short rests on average per long rest.

My variant makes it easy for a GM to achieve the proper balance without any effort. The GM does not have to worry about taking rests unrealistically, or disrupting the flow of action. And different players can catch breath at their own pace: The Warlock might not need to refresh his spells but the Druid might need to change shape. (Forcing a shared short rest on both either messes with one character or inserts too many short rests into a day.)

More in some ways and less in others. For instance, they are now limited to two short rests per long rest. Also, the decision to take (or not take) a short rest is less consequential, so it is in some sense less of a choice.

In practice, players often do not get that choice. (Also, short rests are currently either inconsequential "and then an hour passes" or very consequential "ok, you sit on your asses while the world moves on without you; next time you'll think hard before taking a short rest in the middle of an epic day.")

I'm no Authority, so if you don't like the variant, don't use it. But I think it is an improvement.

Anyway,

Ken