Shared Experiences: Worlds Largest Dungeon, Shackled City or Other?

[JoeGKushner]

I'll be interested in seeing how well the rereleased Freeport does. I've had friends who DMed the first trilogy of modules.

I'm more interested in seeing how the Witch Fire trilogy does. The original was a little scrippted but was meant for any d20 campaign but the world books weren't out at the time. Will this new version require the user to own all the other Iron Kingdoms stuff and be a better Iron Kingdoms product while being a worse d20 product?

Be intereresting to see.

And I'm still surprised that WoTC hasn't updated the adventure path books into a single collection and updated the links between them. It would seem relatively easy to do and continue to keep the books in print in a format more people would find useful. But perhaps the era of WoTC doing bigger adventurers is over? (But then again, we have Red Hand of Doom coming out so...)

 

[Psion]

How is Shackled City official??

Perhaps the (c) Wizards of the Coast

 

[Psion]

Wow, Shackled City is a great product but seriously, if people are choosing it for these reasons.. :\

Hardly the biggest reason. Here's my two:

1) Variety. You aren't "stuck in the dungeon" and your goals and tone of the adventure change from time to time.
2) Authors that know the system. Not that some of the authors contributing to WLD don't, but I won't see nonsense like "ignore the take 20 rules" in Shackled City.

 

[Jim Hague]

And here's where I chime in with some WLD commentary. C'mon, like you weren't expecting this...

For the folks stating that WLD doesn't support roleplay, or a variety of styles, I'll point out that nearly every Region has at least 2-3 major plots and several subplots floating around. In a lot of cases, following the route of cleverness or diplomacy and negotiation produces far better results than hack and slash. There's an entire Region pretty much devoted to the plots and not the hack.

As for the restrictions...well, I'll leave it at saying I don't agree with a lot of them. There were certain folks guiding those particular decisions, and IME committed the cardinal sin of imposing their house rules in a supposedly open-ended product.

That said, I think a lot of this misunderstanding comes from the name of the product - which sounds more evocative, 'The World's Largest Dungeon' or 'Shackled City'? Me, I'd go with the latter; the former sounds like a damn theme park. Worse, many gamers automatically assume it's an episode of Combat Combat Combat! when the word 'dungeon' is thrown into the mix. With time and distance, I think that the WLD could have gone with another name.

 

[radferth]

WLD is not a campaign-in-a-box like Shackled City or the 2nd ed Night Below. It is merely a dungeon large enough to base a campaign on. This strikes me as a good thing, but I don't think the two fill exactly the same role. I would say WLD is more likely to be a shared experience thing because it is much easier to stick it in as part of an ongoing campaign. From what I've read on this board and from talking to , RtToEE is the closest thing to a shared experience, that experience being stuck in the mines for months or real time and finally giving up. Thats what happened to my campaign there, although the non-whiny players and I enjoyed it up to that point. To totally change the subject, I must admit that the title of this thread has convinced me that Valar should come up with a Book of Erotic Fantasy mega-adventure called World's Largest Shackles.

 

[Psion]

And here's where I chime in with some WLD commentary. C'mon, like you weren't expecting this...

For the folks stating that WLD doesn't support roleplay, or a variety of styles, I'll point out that nearly every Region has at least 2-3 major plots and several subplots floating around. In a lot of cases, following the route of cleverness or diplomacy and negotiation produces far better results than hack and slash. There's an entire Region pretty much devoted to the plots and not the hack.

I almost feel as if you are responding directly to me, so I guess I should amplify where I am coming from.

I trust you have read my review of the book? If you recall it's pretty rosy. And to be fair, I really like the way the descriptions are laid out. It's very convenient for the GM.

I had misgivings about the notion of being "stuck in the dungeon" regardless of the variety in the dungeon. Whether or not there are RP encounters, there is an actual and perceived (I think perceptions play as big a role as anything) limitation of choice that comes with being stuck in an underground dwelling for extended periods. Having played through Night Below book 2 (spitooey!) and having heard of many tales of dreadful slogs through the Crater Mines in RttToEE (which WLD is much bigger than...), this was sitting at the back of my brain as I wrote the review. I decided not to mention at the time, because I figured that it was a personal thing and those who buy the book know what they are getting into.

It occurred to me later that perhaps they don't and perhaps I should have spoken up on those feelings. Because, you see, since I wrote that review, I have heard of not one, but many cases of WLD campaigns grinding to a halt. It was like hearing the Crater Mines and NB book 2 experience all over again. I should emphasize here that some of these tales are from a good way through the dungeon, having experienced multiple regions.

I think some sections of WLD are well designed and interesting. But I think the "un-escapeable dungeon" design criteria is a problem when applied to any large dungeon. By comparison, I like Rappan Athuk and Undermountain. Though they are challenging to get into and out of in some cases, at least you can make forays, try alternate plots and backdrops, etc. I think the psycholigal and practical effects of such a design edict are difficult for a campaign to overcome.

 

[Jim Hague]

I almost feel as if you are responding directly to me, so I guess I should amplify where I am coming from.

I'm responding to a lot of folks, but you've addressed many points, and well, so I'll respond directly.

I trust you have read my review of the book? If you recall it's pretty rosy. And to be fair, I really like the way the descriptions are laid out. It's very convenient for the GM.

I wasn't implying (or didn't mean to, at least) that anyone hates the WLD, simply that there's a perception about it that's false in a lot of cases, a point you address...here!

I had misgivings about the notion of being "stuck in the dungeon" regardless of the variety in the dungeon. Whether or not there are RP encounters, there is an actual and perceived (I think perceptions play as big a role as anything) limitation of choice that comes with being stuck in an underground dwelling for extended periods. Having played through Night Below book 2 (spitooey!) and having heard of many tales of dreadful slogs through the Crater Mines in RttToEE (which WLD is much bigger than...), this was sitting at the back of my brain as I wrote the review. I decided not to mention at the time, because I figured that it was a personal thing and those who buy the book know what they are getting into.

I don't disagree with any of these, actually. I think for the WLD to be successful (as with any general use game product) a certain degree of modification to the WLD has to be made. Just between you and me and the board, I think the WLD works best when taken as individual 'modules' instead of trying to game through the whole Dagwood of a book. But that's just me.

It occurred to me later that perhaps they don't and perhaps I should have spoken up on those feelings. Because, you see, since I wrote that review, I have heard of not one, but many cases of WLD campaigns grinding to a halt. It was like hearing the Crater Mines and NB book 2 experience all over again. I should emphasize here that some of these tales are from a good way through the dungeon, having experienced multiple regions.

Yup. Again, I don't disagree. It warms the cockles of my shrivelled heart to see folks like DaveMage and BlueBlackRed posting their experiences, but I'm not fool enough to think every group is going to slog through what's admittedly a massive undertaking.

I think some sections of WLD are well designed and interesting. But I think the "un-escapeable dungeon" design criteria is a problem when applied to any large dungeon. By comparison, I like Rappan Athuk and Undermountain. Though they are challenging to get into and out of in some cases, at least you can make forays, try alternate plots and backdrops, etc. I think the psycholigal and practical effects of such a design edict are difficult for a campaign to overcome.

And again, I agree. The 'inescapable' aspect was shoehorned in for verisimillitude - if the PCs can leave whenever (instead of, say, overwhelming the Elven garrison and leaving thattaway), then why not the bad guys? Unfortunately, like some of the other decisions made at higher levels design-wise, I do think it restricts play more than necessary.

 

[Vascant]

While WLD does deal some pretty hefty damage when throw, it is equally painful to read as well. WLD had one objective it seems, to be big. Thats it and they achieved it.

SC on the other hand attempted to give flow from 1st to 20th level and keep a story line, I am pretty sure this is a first for a published product. (Keep in mind WotC's AP did not keep a story line, just levels). From the designers to Chris West's maps, WLD doesn't even come close to something like this.

As far as players talking about experiences, we have 8 local groups that I am aware of and 3 of which have played SC either based on the publication or HB. I have noticed it does spark conversations with comparisons to previous GH adventures or encounters. We have had some compare aspects to ToEE/RtToEE, to the last encounter against Iggwilv's daughter in S4, some even wondering if the lost temple was going to come into play at some point.

Granted there are some weak points in the story line but on the other side of that, you attempt that many pages of material and not have a few weak points. SC really opened things up with what you can do with a single city and how far you can take it, it attempted to make the players feel apart of something.

Finally to the "Is it official comment?". If you pick up any of the Dragon or Dungeon Magazines you will notice on the front cover "100% Official Content". This is not a new change and has been there for quite a while.

 

[Jim Hague]

While WLD does deal some pretty hefty damage when throw, it is equally painful to read as well. WLD had one objective it seems, to be big. Thats it and they achieved it.

I'm sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong here. I'm sorry that you don't like the product, but perhaps you'd care to offer up some actual points against it, instead of mindlessly bashing it?

SC on the other hand attempted to give flow from 1st to 20th level and keep a story line, I am pretty sure this is a first for a published product. (Keep in mind WotC's AP did not keep a story line, just levels). From the designers to Chris West's maps, WLD doesn't even come close to something like this.

Again, quite incorrect on all points. However, the WLD is a general use product, while I believe Shackled City is meant to be more campaign specific. Again, I invite you to provide actual analysis instead of sweeping generalizations. Perhaps a dissenting review in the Reviews section?

 

[Vascant]

Jim Hague: How can I be wrong, it is just an opinion and in fact, my opinion. If I like or dislike something it is just an opinion. I really do not expect anyone to change their own opinion of something just based on something someone else says. Read it, if you enjoy it.. Great! If you didn't.. Great!

Part of what makes being human such a delight is the fact we can have an opinion, you may not agree with it but does not make you any more correct or right then I am. Just another person with an opinion.

I am pretty easy to find on ENWorld's irc chat room, if you wish any other opinions.