Shield bash

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I don't think so. The glossary definition simply refers to the off-hand as "a character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left)". So an off-hand attack would be an attack with a weapon/shield held in the off-hand, whether you're using a weapon in the primary hand or not. If your right-handed character switches his longsword to his left hand to pick up something, is suddenly attacked, and responds with the longsword in his left hand, he still takes the off-hand penalty, even though he is not dual-wielding.

Yes, but if you were wielding the shield in your right hand, it would not be an off-hand attack. All I'm saying is that the description is implying that in normal circumstances, your shield is carried in your off-hand, so a shield bash is treated as an off-hand attack. If you had no other weapon but your shield, nothing is stopping you from switching your shield to your main hand and attacking without the off-hand penalty. That's what I mean by imposing common sense on what's been written. I mean.. come on.. why would wielding a shield impose an off-hand penalty when it isn't wielded in your offhand? There's no way that whoever wrote that paragraph meant for that to be the case..

 

[Jai Kel]

Since the shield and spiked shield are listed in the equipment list under weapons, it would seem to me that they are to be considered viable weapons.

If they were not on the list they would be improvised weapons, but they are clearly delineated as weapons.

But then, the problem arises with the description of shield bash under the shield entries. It specifically only calls out using the shield as an off-hand attack.

Personally, the shields I have seen actually wielded in RL seem to be just as much of a weapon as any others listed. Also, I've even seen those SCA guys at Ren Faires (SCA right?), win a battle after losing their primary weapon and only fighting with a shield. I am going to allow them to be used for making bash attacks even in the primary hand.

The damage is fairly pathetic anyway. So, if a character wants a shield (or spiked shield) as their weapon and then they spend a feat to allow keeping the AC bonus of the shield while using it as a weapon, good for them. With all of the other better choices for a weapon and a feat, this one is not going to suddenly become the preferred method of fighting in the world.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Wouldn't common sense rule against taking your shield and using both hands to bash someone over the head with it?

IMO, the shield always suffers off-hand penalties because it simply is not designed to be used as an offensive weapon and cannot make use of the wielder's full strength in that capacity (and no, Captain America is not a valid counter argument).

And for balance reasons, I don't want some munchking doing a x2 power attack with shield charge + spikes spell + yadda yadda yadda.

So common sense, game balance, and the rules as written, all work towards the same goal for me. Only the power gaming rules rapers will be put out.

??? I wouldn't let anyone use a shield two-handed either.. what does that have to do with anything? What I'm saying is that if you wanted to use a shield in your main hand, there's no reason to apply an off-hand penalty to the attack.

Also, your argument about the shield always suffering off-hand penalties because it isn't designed as an offensive weapon doesn't make sense.. there's already a rule in place for those types of weapons. See the section on Improvised Weapons on p. 113 of the 3.5 PHB.

By the way, using a shield two-handed to gain power attack is mega-munchkin.. kind of like letting someone attack with a lance two-handed. Both are built to be used one-handed. Actually, I might allow it but treat the shield or lance as an improvised weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, your argument about the shield always suffering off-hand penalties because it isn't designed as an offensive weapon doesn't make sense.. there's already a rule in place for those types of weapons. See the section on Improvised Weapons on p. 113 of the 3.5 PHB.

And the penalty for using an Improvised Weapon?

-4

-Hyp.

 

[DarkMaster]

And the penalty for using an Improvised Weapon?

-4

-Hyp.

What about TWF 20 fighters with a full plate +5 one small one large spiked shield +5/+5 (don't know if we can enchant the spike to provide attack bonus) you end up with a AC of around 10+13 + 7 + 6 = 36 plus whatever dodge.

Would be nice if the shield bonus in two different hand would stack. Logically it should (it is much harder to hit someone with two shield than someone with one!) with proper feats it could be an interesting concepts.

Since I am the master I can house rule whatever I want .

 

[Hypersmurf]

... one small one large spiked shield +5/+5 (don't know if we can enchant the spike to provide attack bonus)...

You can't, but you can enchant the spiked shield to provide an enhancement bonus to attacks.

As you've noted - spiked shield +5/+5. A spiked shield that has a +5 enhancement bonus to its shield bonus, and a +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Not a +5 shield with a +5 spike.

-Hyp.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

And the penalty for using an Improvised Weapon?

-4

-Hyp.

??? Whu..??? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but I know it has nothing to do with my post!

Ki Ryn said that the off-hand penalty was because the shield isn't meant for combat. My point was that, no, you would incur an improvised weapon penalty if a shield wasn't meant for combat. If what Ki Ryn said was correct, the description would have said to treat the shield as an improvised weapon.

What I'm saying is that (in my opinion) the off-hand penalty mentioned in the shield description refers to the common usage of the shield, which is to hold it in your off-hand while you wield a weapon in your main hand. Even if you drop your weapon, your shield is still strapped to your off-hand, so you would still incur the off-hand penalty. If, however, you were to take the time to move your shield to your main hand, you would not incur the off-hand penalty, since the shield is no longer in your off-hand.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If, however, you were to take the time to move your shield to your main hand, you would not incur the off-hand penalty, since the shield is no longer in your off-hand.

Alternatively, it could be argued that at this point, you could not attack with it at all, since a shield is considered a martial weapon when "used this way", and "used this way" is "bash an opponent, using it as an off-hand weapon".

If you're not using it as an off-hand weapon, you're not using it "this way"; if you're not using it "this way", it's not a martial weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Alternatively, it could be argued that at this point, you could not attack with it at all, since a shield is considered a martial weapon when "used this way", and "used this way" is "bash an opponent, using it as an off-hand weapon".

If you're not using it as an off-hand weapon, you're not using it "this way"; if you're not using it "this way", it's not a martial weapon.

-Hyp.

That would be a hard sell.. according to the description, "used this way" seems to refer to "using a shield to shield bash", not "usiing a shield off-hand".

Anyway, like I said, this is only my opinion. If you want to rule that shields can only be used off-hand, I support you 100%.

 

[Darklone]

What about TWF 20 fighters with a full plate +5 one small one large spiked shield +5/+5 (don't know if we can enchant the spike to provide attack bonus) you end up with a AC of around 10+13 + 7 + 6 = 36 plus whatever dodge.

Would be nice if the shield bonus in two different hand would stack. Logically it should (it is much harder to hit someone with two shield than someone with one!) with proper feats it could be an interesting concepts.

Since I am the master I can house rule whatever I want .

You're welcome to houserule that... just be assured I don't see much logic in that. And I did fight against someone with two shields already.

IME, someone fighting with one shield already uses both hands. Still, I'd consider it (now with a -4 to hit) as an offhand weapon with half strength bonus.