Level Up (A5E) Shield Focus vs Defensive Weapon Property

[Pauln6]

I am toying with the idea of converting our existing 5e characters to A5E. One of our PCs has Shield Master (A5E Shield Focus). The main difference seems to be that the A5E feat only allows you to shove as a bonus action, rather than knockdown, which is his go-to combat tactic.

Now, the Defensive weapon property allows you to make a bonus action attack with your shield. As an improvised weapon, there would be no proficiency bonus on that attack (unless you are somehow proficient from background or a feat) but I can see no reason why you couldn't replace that attack with a shove or knockdown, which as a save, would be unaffected by your lack of proficiency. This is available without the feat and is more versatile.

I appreciate that Shield Focus has other worthwhile benefits that are decent on their own plus it can be used with weapons that don't have the appropriate defensive property but the wording was largely carried across from 5e and I wondered if that aspect was intentionally left as redundant? Given the way the feat is described, should it not grant proficiency in using a shield to attack so that it has some more synergy with defensive weapons?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

i guess the benefit of the feat is that you can shove with a weapon that doesn't have the defensive property, but i'd imagine you'd want to use a defensive weapon with a shield anyway most of the time.

i never really noticed this before, honestly. i think replacing the shoving point of the feat with "you add your proficiency bonus to attacks made with shields" would be fine.

EDIT: actually, it looks like you can only replace attack action attacks with a basic maneuver. since the defensive shield attack is not part of the attack action, you technically can't replace it with a basic maneuver. i still think granting proficiency to attacks with shields would be a fine thing to add to the feat.

 

[Pauln6]

i guess the benefit of the feat is that you can shove with a weapon that doesn't have the defensive property, but i'd imagine you'd want to use a defensive weapon with a shield anyway most of the time.

i never really noticed this before, honestly. i think replacing the shoving point of the feat with "you add your proficiency bonus to attacks made with shields" would be fine.

EDIT: actually, it looks like you can only replace attack action attacks with a basic maneuver. since the defensive shield attack is not part of the attack action, you technically can't replace it with a basic maneuver. i still think granting proficiency to attacks with shields would be a fine thing to add to the feat.

Re basic manoeuvres. I couldn't find anything specific saying a bonus action attack could not be replaced with a basic manoeuvre. The rules do say that a basic manoeuvre 'replaces an attack made on your turn' which would seem to include bonus action attacks.

However, unlike overrun and tumble, shove and knockdown don't expressly mention using a bonus action. Is this because under normal circumstances you would not get a bonus action attack or is it an intentional omission? This would also mean that bonus action attacks from dual wielding also cannot push or knockdown.

I have noted that the Vengeful Protector feat DOES give weapon proficiency in shields. Also page 315 confirms that shields can be treated as rare weapons and you can train in their use in downtime.

Someone with more than one attack could do a knockdown attack with a shield, follow up with main weapon, and then a bonus action attack with the shield from defensive.

So, the next issue is when you attack with a shield, it is treated as an improvised weapon, and you can't get duelling +2 damage if your shield counts as a weapon.

The other issue is that the bonus action attack is not dual wielding and strength modifier would apply to damage.

There Is a lot to unpack here!

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Re basic manoeuvres. I couldn't find anything specific saying a bonus action attack could not be replaced with a basic manoeuvre. The rules do say that a basic manoeuvre 'replaces an attack made on your turn' which would seem to include bonus action attacks.

they say "if you are able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this maneuver replaces one of them". that tells me it's only meant to apply to attacks taken as part of the attack action, which would not include bonus action attacks

 

[Pauln6]

they say "if you are able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this maneuver replaces one of them". that tells me it's only meant to apply to attacks taken as part of the attack action, which would not include bonus action attacks

Yes, I do agree, but that's not definitive wording, since it only specifies using the attack action with multiple attacks and you can't get multiple attacks with a bonus action in any event (unless dual wielding, which you can't do with a shield). You can't normally attack with a bonus action in any event. Really, the defensive property should state that the bonus action attack with the shield cannot be replaced with a basic manoeuvre.

Dual Wielding Expert would allow you to fight with a shield as your secondary weapon as standard if you were trained to use it as a weapon but as a 1d4 weapon with no properties it's not exactly optimal, even for non-defensive weapons in your main hand, beyond deciding at the start of each round whether to use it as a shield or a weapon. For a defensive weapon, you get the benefit of your shield and the bonus attack with strength modifier.

 

[lichmaster]

EDIT: actually, it looks like you can only replace attack action attacks with a basic maneuver. since the defensive shield attack is not part of the attack action, you technically can't replace it with a basic maneuver. i still think granting proficiency to attacks with shields would be a fine thing to add to the feat.

If you look at Use a Basic Maneuver it says

You can always choose to Disarm, Grapple, Knockdown, Overrun, or Shove as a basic maneuver instead of making an attack

I think it's way simpler and flexible. I don't see reasons why it shouldn't be possible to do that with bonus actions or even reactions

Edit: The exceptions would be the Grab on and Overrun maneuvers, as they also entail some significant form of movement and it makes sense for them to be "full round" actions.
Probably the implication is that any off-hand attacks made as bonus actions are still part of the Attack action (as you can only perform those attacks when you take the normal attack action). Hence the potentially confusing statement about extra attacks with the attack action

 

[lichmaster]

Someone with more than one attack could do a knockdown attack with a shield, follow up with main weapon, and then a bonus action attack with the shield from defensive.

I think this would be a pretty standard approach for sword and board fighters

So, the next issue is when you attack with a shield, it is treated as an improvised weapon, and you can't get duelling +2 damage if your shield counts as a weapon.

The other issue is that the bonus action attack is not dual wielding and strength modifier would apply to damage.

There Is a lot to unpack here!

I think using a shield to make a normal melee attack is generally one of the worst options. It only deals 1d4 damage, normally you can't apply strength damage and proficiency bonus to attacks since it's an improvised weapon.

Where it shines IMO is in giving options to perform basic combat maneuvers round after round. If you have the Technical Fighting style: you'd do 1+Str Mod +2 damage and increase DC of any maneuver by 1. Maneuvers just impose a save (typically Str or Dex), so applying proficiency doesn't count. With any defensive weapon you could do that as a bonus action every round. Think of it as a "free" shove or knockdown attempt per round, which also applies extra damage

The only way to do better would be to have a shield which somehow also counts as a dual wielding weapon (at least a rare item IMO), but even in that case the main advantage would be the possibility to make more than 2 basic maneuvers using both off-hand bonus actions attacks

 

[Pauln6]

I think this would be a pretty standard approach for sword and board fighters


I think using a shield to make a normal melee attack is generally one of the worst options. It only deals 1d4 damage, normally you can't apply strength damage and proficiency bonus to attacks since it's an improvised weapon.

Where it shines IMO is in giving options to perform basic combat maneuvers round after round. If you have the Technical Fighting style: you'd do 1+Str Mod +2 damage and increase DC of any maneuver by 1. Maneuvers just impose a save (typically Str or Dex), so applying proficiency doesn't count. With any defensive weapon you could do that as a bonus action every round. Think of it as a "free" shove or knockdown attempt per round, which also applies extra damage

The only way to do better would be to have a shield which somehow also counts as a dual wielding weapon (at least a rare item IMO), but even in that case the main advantage would be the possibility to make more than 2 basic maneuvers using both off-hand bonus actions attacks

So you are saying that you think you SHOULD be able to perform shove and knockdown, as a bonus attack every round with a shield and defensive weapon? I agree that it's thematic but was it intended? It seems amazing.

I ask because the PC in question uses a bastard sword which was rolled into longsword in 5e but has different properties in A5E. If he gets a bonus action knockdown, he would be bonkers not to retcon it as a longsword.

 

[lichmaster]

So you are saying that you think you SHOULD be able to perform shove and knockdown, as a bonus attack every round with a shield and defensive weapon? I agree that it's thematic but was it intended? It seems amazing.

I can't tell you if it was officially intended as I wasn't part of the design team.
The way I read the rules suggests so.
However, I think this needs a small clarification: given the way the "defensive" property is spelled ("When you make an attack with this weapon and are using a shield designed for it, you can use a bonus action to either make an attack with your shield...") , the shove or knockdown performed instead of the shield attack as bonus action only happens during or after the Attack action, not before.
So a level 1 character could do the routine attack then bonus attack, not the other way. This has quite some implications as that character wouldn't be able to attempt a knockdown and eventually then attack the enemy with advantage.
A character with Extra attack could do one attack from the main attack action, then decide if to take the bonus attack or not, and perform the other attacks with the main attack action.
All this of course if the character does not decide to swap one of his normal attacks with a knockdown, as that's always an option.
What's cool IMO is not just the possibility of knocking down the enemy and potentially allowing all the party to attack with advantage (barring ranged attacks of course), but also to use the shove basic maneuvre multiple times, potentially pushing the enemy 15+ft towards hazards.

I ask because the PC in question uses a bastard sword which was rolled into longsword in 5e but has different properties in A5E. If he gets a bonus action knockdown, he would be bonkers not to retcon it as a longsword.

If that's the main idea then it's definitely a good choice.
Bastard sword is cool in A5E as it's not just versatile but also has the parry property. Doesn't work when using a shield, but makes two-handing it more viable as you can get potentially more AC than a shield against a single attack. And there are combat traditions and maneuvers where being missed may give you extra free attacks (eg Parrying counter)

As you see there are tons of options given by the synergies of weapon properties, combat maneuvers, feats and class features

Edit: I couldn't remember which maneuver was, but if you take for instance Heightened Reflexes you can get extra reactions. That would work very well with a weapon with the parring property. You could also take Flowing Form and just counterattack anyone that misses you. These two maneuvers are respectively an action and a bonus action, so could be activated simultaneously and turn a two-handing bastard sword fighter into a blender to throw into hordes of enemies!

 

[Pauln6]

I can't tell you if it was officially intended as I wasn't part of the design team.
The way I read the rules suggests so.
However, I think this needs a small clarification: given the way the "defensive" property is spelled ("When you make an attack with this weapon and are using a shield designed for it, you can use a bonus action to either make an attack with your shield...") , the shove or knockdown performed instead of the shield attack as bonus action only happens during or after the Attack action, not before.
So a level 1 character could do the routine attack then bonus attack, not the other way. This has quite some implications as that character wouldn't be able to attempt a knockdown and eventually then attack the enemy with advantage.
A character with Extra attack could do one attack from the main attack action, then decide if to take the bonus attack or not, and perform the other attacks with the main attack action.
All this of course if the character does not decide to swap one of his normal attacks with a knockdown, as that's always an option.
What's cool IMO is not just the possibility of knocking down the enemy and potentially allowing all the party to attack with advantage (barring ranged attacks of course), but also to use the shove basic maneuvre multiple times, potentially pushing the enemy 15+ft towards hazards.

If that's the main idea then it's definitely a good choice.
Bastard sword is cool in A5E as it's not just versatile but also has the parry property. Doesn't work when using a shield, but makes two-handing it more viable as you can get potentially more AC than a shield against a single attack. And there are combat traditions and maneuvers where being missed may give you extra free attacks (eg Parrying counter)

As you see there are tons of options given by the synergies of weapon properties, combat maneuvers, feats and class features

Edit: I couldn't remember which maneuver was, but if you take for instance Heightened Reflexes you can get extra reactions. That would work very well with a weapon with the parring property. You could also take Flowing Form and just counterattack anyone that misses you. These two maneuvers are respectively an action and a bonus action, so could be activated simultaneously and turn a two-handing bastard sword fighter into a blender to throw into hordes of enemies!

That's an interesting caveat as any knockdown would only benefit mid level characters with multiple attacks or allies who could attack before the monster's next turn. I sort of dig the tactical choices that brings up. I need to read the wording of shield focus to see where that sits.