Shield Push Question

[Krensus]

Consider this setup:

X=Fighter
Y=Friend
M=Monster

|_|_|_|_|_|
|_|_|M|X|_|
|_|_|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|Y|_|

The Monster is marked and uses a Close Blast 3 spell, provoking a Combat Challenge attack from the fighter that hits and knocks it back one square to this configuration:


|_|M|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|X|_|
|_|_|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|Y|_|

Is Y still a viable target for the Close Blast spell, as he is no longer in range for it? Is the fighter now an allowable target for the spell, even though he made an challenge attack provoked by the enemy making an attack that didn't include him?

My gut feeling is that the Blast hits no one, because he has chosen his targets already, and the "Close Blast" descriptor is just to clarify what area you can target creatures in. Now he's no longer in range of the target, so just like a melee attack, it fails and his standard action is consumed.

Maybe there's a rule that I've just missed, but I have no idea on this one, so that answer's probably wrong. Any ideas?

 

[cmbarona]

Whoo... good question. After poking around a bit, I'd ultimately direct you to PHB 271. In the "Close Attack" shaded area, under "Origin Square," it says, "A close blast uses a square within your space as its origin square." Thus, I would say that the origin square remains in the monster's new space, and the monster makes the close burst in the same pattern it would have prior to the push.

 

[glitchwraith]

Combat Challange allows you to use a melee basic attack as an immediate interupt, which means you would hit the monster before he does any damage to your friend. Assuming the shield push power states you can use it in place of a melee basic attack, then the monster would be pushed out of range of the player and thus would not hit them. However, I could not find the power you referenced glancing through your books, so I don't know if you can use it as a melee basic attack. If Sheild Push doesn't mention this, then you wouldn't be able to push the monster anywhere, and he would still attack your buddy.

edit: Beaten by someone who seems to be more knowledgable. Oh well.

 

[Krensus]

Shield Push isn't a power, it's a feat that says when you hit with Combat Challenge, you may push the target 1 square.

And my thinking is similar to yours, cmbarona, in that he's initiated the use of the power, and if there are other targets in range he could still hit them. When it gets weird is if his original pattern of the blast would now include me, even though I've made a Combat Challenge attack for him making an attack that doesn't include me...

 

[MarkB]

I'd be sorely tempted to say that the enemy's attack is now invalidated. It targeted a specific set of squares with a Close Blast, that set of squares is no longer in range for a Close attack, therefore its attack fails.

 

[GorTeX]

my comprehension skills are sorely lacking this soon after waking up....

 

[DracoSuave]

When an interrupt changes the parameters of an attack, successful or not, the attack continues exactly as it was before, with all illegal options invalidated.

So, the attack rolls for the target are rolled, the fighter's CC triggers and he Shield Pushes the enemy to the location. Now we have to recheck everything. The target in the example is now out of range of the power, and is no longer a legal target. The attack against him is therefore invalidated.

And good on the players for positioning themselves like that. That's good tactics, and -should- be rewarded.

 

[Paul Strack]

I agree that good tactics should be rewarded. If the monster is pushed back, the friend is out of range and no longer affected by the blast.

The combat challenge trigger is when the attack is made, so the interrupt occurs before the attack.

I would rule, however, that the monster can position his blast to include the fighter, who is (potentially) in range.

 

[Kordeth]

When an interrupt changes the parameters of an attack, successful or not, the attack continues exactly as it was before, with all illegal options invalidated.

So, the attack rolls for the target are rolled, the fighter's CC triggers and he Shield Pushes the enemy to the location. Now we have to recheck everything. The target in the example is now out of range of the power, and is no longer a legal target. The attack against him is therefore invalidated.

The issue, though, is this: is the entire attack invalidated because the chosen blast area is no longer adjacent to the origin square after the creature is pushed, or does the origin square of the blast "update" itself to the monster's new position after the push? In the former case, the blast attack is cancelled, in the latter, it might still hit the fighter's other allies (not shown in this example), or depending on the area chosen for the blast might end up hitting the fighter this time.

 

[cmbarona]

(snip) it might still hit the fighter's other allies (not shown in this example), or depending on the area chosen for the blast might end up hitting the fighter this time.

... Or, it could hit the monster's allies (not shown in this example).