Shield Push - Shift invalidation

[eamon]

I posted a thread a while back about interrupts and invalidation in general, but a specific question remained unresolved: Does the immediate interrupt push granted by Combat Challenge (with the Shield push feat) invalidate the shift it triggers on?

Interrupts trigger when you try to perform an action - such as shifting - but resove before the trigger. The original shift may well be impossible after the push, so there's an argument to be made that the action is lost - in general you can't just change your mind about the action just because it was interrupted - so for instance, if you try to attack someone but he shifts away, you can't instead attack someone else. I'm not sure the same should apply to shifting.

 

[Starfox]

Why not?

 

[eamon]

Why not?

For instance, since shifting is not targeted. Perhaps invalidation does apply to shifting in this instance, I'm just uncertain - you do think it applies?

It seems like a fairly common situation, so there's got to be a reasonable answer, you'd think.

 

[tiornys]

SHIFT: MOVE ACTION

• Movement: Move 1 square
• (a bunch of irrelevant stuff)

So, a creature initiates the shift action. He is interrupted by the fighter, hit, and pushed. He can now finish resolving the shift action, which consists of moving 1 square. Unless the push somehow invalidates moving one square (this can happen; perhaps the creature is pushed into a single square pit, or into the middle of difficult terrain), I don't see anything stopping them from getting to move that one square.

t~

 

[Shabe]

Surely the trigger is shifting out of a square in the case of combat challenge, so the character gets pushed if the fighter wants to push him and the player then gets to shift. If the character had already shifted then the character would be out of reach, so it has to be before the character leaves the square and before he has concluded his shift that the attack takes place, leaving the character able to finish it after the combat challenge.

Narratively the character starts carefully edging off backwards and takes a quick glance behind him to make sure no danger lies there, the fighter slams into the character with his shield knocking him backwards, the character, now out of the fighters reach, quickly looks round again and edges closer to his target.

At least it makes sense to me.

 

[Chen_93]

The implication of no invalidating it though is that the shift location is not declared until after the chance to interrupt passes. If the shift location IS declared then it is possible to invalidate it if the fighter pushes the creature so that he can no longer shift to the declared square.

 

[eamon]

Most people seem to think that you still get to shift. Just to play devil's advocate; that's quite different from what happens when you attack - right? If you have an ability to shift away as an interrupt when someone attacks you, and you do so, then the attack action is lost. You can't change anything about the attack, say, and decide to charge one square further, or to attack someone else - the action is simply lost. Why should shifting be any different?

Hypothesizing, say combat challenge only triggered when someone shifted away - i.e. to a non-adjacent square. Would you still be allowed to change that square in response to being interrupted and pushed such that the original shift becomes impossible?

The point is, I see no real distinction between attacks and shifting - why would one be required to fully-declare upfront, and the other not? Just like you can't just "attack" but need to attack someone, you can't just "shift", you need to shift somewhere. That's the shift that triggers Combat Challenge, and that shift is impossible if you're pushed.

Balance wise, losing the shift isn't necessarily overpowering, since you've achieved your primary aim and left reach of the fighter, and can now charge (or use any of a number of other abilities which allow attacking at reach or range or with movement). A kobold could shift again anyhow.

Edit: Fixing the grammar were bad.

 

[D'karr]

The point is, I see no real distinction between attacks and shifting - why would one be required to fully-declare upfront, and the other not?

Because an attack has a Target component and a shift does not.

 

[eamon]

Because an attack has a Target component and a shift does not.

It might not be called a target, but a shift still has a "target" square to which you're shifting. I can't find a rule that implies that you can change your mind about which square you'll move to, but cannot change your mind about which creature you'll attack.

In the meantime, I've asked CS. We'll see what they say (after the weekend).

The Fighter's Combat Challenge class feature is an immediate interrupt that triggers on a shift. If he has the Shield Push feat (p. 200), then the immediate interrupt attack can push the target on a hit.

Per the rules about immediate interrupts (p. 268), they resolve before the triggering action and can invalidate the triggering action. The example mentioned is that if you are attacked but shift away as an immediate interrupt, the attack action is lost. I presume it's not an option for the attacker to "change his mind" about attacking you and just attack someone else (or use a ranged attack).

So what about the push granted by shield push? The pushed creature can (usually) no longer make the shift he intended to, but he can make another shift. Is his shift action lost because he is not able to "change his mind", or may he choose a different square to shift since he can still shift (just not the same way)?

 

[D'karr]

It might not be called a target, but a shift still has a "target" square to which you're shifting. I can't find a rule that implies that you can change your mind about which square you'll move to, but cannot change your mind about which creature you'll attack.

In the meantime, I've asked CS. We'll see what they say (after the weekend).

Target is a Keyword and movement does not have it.

Until it is somehow errata'd, and I really doubt it would be, I'll keep playing with attacks have targets, movement does not. It adds absolutely nothing to play it that way.

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