Shield Walls and Crossbows

[Friend of the Dork]

Well the main problem with the crossbow here is the fact that D&D has hit points, a lack of damage reduction from armor and especially the need for specialization in feats and magic items.

Because of HPs, a well placed bolt cannot kill a man, even a critical hit only does on average 9 damage with a light and 11 damage with a heavy crossbow, which a 1st level fighter can handle. This becomes ALOT worse on higher levels as the damage increase in crossbow (even with deadly aim) cannot compete with HP gain. Thus it remains a useful weapon for those with no other proficiency, and for low-level minions.

Bow damage on the other hand, is not just possible several times per round with no feat wasted, it can even be increased with str-bows. Even if you can take the fairly new Rapid Reload feat to get a full-attack with a light crossbow, there are very few ways of increasing that damage.

Possible fix is:

Str-based crossbows. You need a certain str bonus to draw it, however you can use mechanical devices instead, which increase the reload time. Let's say +3 max for light crossbows, and +6 maximum for heavy crossbows. The former increases load time to 1 full action, while the latter doubles loading time (2 full-actions, which basically means shooting only every 3 rounds.

This is still not realistic (some crossbows could only really fire 2-3 bolts per minute), but it's a real drawback which can be negated for goons, and still remain useful for PCs.

 

[TanisFrey]

We have house rules for strength crossbows. They are as follows:
+1 str cost 100gp, max of +4
If you have the STR for str bow than reload is as normal. If your str is below the Str of the crossbow you must use a winch. It takes an extra action per point of STR bonus you are missing plus one for putting on and removing the winch.

Example: a warrior (str 18) is using a mighty (+4 str) light crossbow. He can fire it once per round. If he has rapid reload feat then he can fire as many times he can attack in a single round.

Give this crossbow to the mage (str 8). The mage can fire it one every ~4 rounds of 7 actions to reload. It takes 1 action plus 5 actions for lack STR plus 1 additional action for the winch. If the mage takes rapid reload feat he can reduce the firing time to one every 4 actions, or 3 rounds. As rapid reload effectively grants him one extra action for reloading the crossbow only.

No player has ever asked to use one, but I plan to ask if my cohort might get one. The cohort was designed to be useful out of combat and resorts to a heavy crossbow if pressed into it. She is an 12 level expert.

 

[JamesonCourage]

What matters is that the NPC king of the kingdom that the PC's are in, is going to want to arm his men with the best/most effective weapons possible. An elf PC with a longbow can kick serious ass, but a group of 10 armed soldiers with crossbows should make anyone hesitate.

I have a rule in my game: every time you are attacked, you take a -2 penalty to your AC (I have AC versus Melee [ACvM] and AC versus Ranged [ACvR] separate, though). That means that yeah, it may be 10 level 1's with crossbows, and they may only get +4 to attack each. However, if all 10 fire at you, you'll be getting -18 to AC by the last shot.

However, your AC cannot decrease to less than 0 + armor bonus (if any). In the case of D&D, you might want to also include other bonus, such as deflection. I know it may not be anyone else's cup of tea, but if you want to give your 5th level PCs pause, then this should do the trick.

As always, play what you and your group like

 

[thenightgaunt]

I have a rule in my game: every time you are attacked, you take a -2 penalty to your AC (I have AC versus Melee [ACvM] and AC versus Ranged [ACvR] separate, though). That means that yeah, it may be 10 level 1's with crossbows, and they may only get +4 to attack each. However, if all 10 fire at you, you'll be getting -18 to AC by the last shot.

However, your AC cannot decrease to less than 0 + armor bonus (if any). In the case of D&D, you might want to also include other bonus, such as deflection. I know it may not be anyone else's cup of tea, but if you want to give your 5th level PCs pause, then this should do the trick.

As always, play what you and your group like

It's an interesting take on being the target to multiple missile attacks at the same time. You can't really dodge out of the way of an arrow when there are 10 others about to hit at the same time. Duck out of the way of one, and right into another one. It's harsh, but I like it.

I think that giving crossbows a str requirement wouldn't be the way to go to solve this. Yes it answers the round time vs. realism problem, but then it over complicates the mechanic at the same time.

 

[Glade Riven]

On a fun side note, Mike Loades showed on one of those history channel specials that the average schmuck could be trained to basic competency with a longbow in 5 days. Basic competency being able to shoot a knight and horse making a charge and hitting in a torso of one or the other.

When dealing with troop formations, I have a tendency to treat a barrage as an Area of Attack (Reflex save half). Unless you have the right class abilities and a good roll, you're going to get hit. It's just a matter of how much damage.

 

[thenightgaunt]

On a fun side note, Mike Loades showed on one of those history channel specials that the average schmuck could be trained to basic competency with a longbow in 5 days. Basic competency being able to shoot a knight and horse making a charge and hitting in a torso of one or the other.

When dealing with troop formations, I have a tendency to treat a barrage as an Area of Attack (Reflex save half). Unless you have the right class abilities and a good roll, you're going to get hit. It's just a matter of how much damage.

Good reference there. I found them on Youtube. Mike helps answer some big questions.

part 2
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&feature=related"]YouTube - Weapons that Made Britain: The Longbow (Part 2)[/ame]
The longbow needs 150lb pull to fire, but it's only when the target is within 20 meters that the longbow arrows even dealt a serious wound to the unhardened breastplate. So unless close, not much punch to them. .

part 4
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUQAFQfZFO0&feature=related"]YouTube - Weapons that Made Britain: The Longbow (Part 4)[/ame]
Reference to Brittish kings passing laws to produce good bowmen. The training bit shows that after a day's intensive training, the people can just about hit a big target at close range. Not a great feat, but as that seems to be the real lethal zone, not bad either.

part 6
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFEorohRiZ4&feature=related"]YouTube - Weapons that Made Britain: The Longbow (Part 6)[/ame]
I like the coverage of crossbow technology here. Not at 3:40 the belt and claw mechanism which speeded up reload times. Though, it does present a more realistic view of the weapons. Crossbows were more expensive and the weapon of specialists. A bit different than the D&D ideal with the crossbow being the weapon of the masses (low damn, crappy usage) and the longbow being the powerful weapon of a specialist.

Part 7 longbow v crossbow
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85CcSgnDgPo&feature=related"]YouTube - Weapons that Made Britain: The Longbow (Part 7)[/ame]
I like this. The results were interesting. Especially the bit about crossbowmen using what are basically tower shields. The results: the longbow fires 2x as fast as the crossbow. 8 a minute vs 16. longbow, which had better range. And though the crossbowman was tired from the exertion, I note he didn't ask the longbowman how he was feeling.


Then again we have actual costs in this video. (I'm a bigger fan of Conquest)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VpsKrs1yww&feature=related"]YouTube - Conquest-Medieval Crossbow - Part 2[/ame]
Crossbow at 41 pennies, and 4000 bolts at 240 pennies. The more advanced crossbows that used steel in the bows themselves were very expensive. But how much did a Longbow cost in comparison?? I found one site that mentions actual cost, stating "In 1483, the price of bowstaves rose from two to eight pounds per hundred"
The English Longbow
Since a pound was about 240 pence, then a longbow stave would be about 4.8 pence. Though that's just for the materials to produce a longbow, not the finished product.

I love the weapon comparison at 4:00
Results: at 20 yards all weapons well do against armor except the shortbow. 40 yards the machlock rifle did great, the longbow hit the face, but the crossbows couldn't penetrate. 60 yards the longbow missed, the crossbows hit but didn't penetrate, and the matchlock ripped it open.
6:00 the real issue. Longbow and Crossbow same killing power at same range (best in 60 yards), crossbow fired slower but required less training.

Then again, here's the aiming issue covered.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpuVK1jwMIA&feature=related"]YouTube - Conquest-Medieval Crossbow - Part 1[/ame]
At 3:20 it starts with the payoff at 5:00. The bowman gets tired and can't keep holding the bow taunt while aiming, so he misses. The Crossbowman hits first time, no effort. Also, crossbowmen can hide behind cover and shoot. Longbowmen don't really have that option all that much.


So it seems that for accuracy, ease of use, and cover you go with a crossbow, for rate of fire it's the longbow. But then both sucked at long range. The big thing then would be cost. Anyone know the actual cost of a Longbow in the 1300's? And can cite the source? That'd help a hell of a lot.

 

[frankthedm]

Maybe just allow crossbows to be cranked gaining +1 armor penetration & +1 damage per round of cranking, with a maximum of as many rounds the DM feels appropriate to boost crossbows enough.