Shift vs Move vs AoO?

[small pumpkin man]

I haven't read the 4E rules yet, so I am not sure about the terminology.
Is a "shift" something special, or is it the same as normal movement?

One of my main concerns with the exceptions-based rules of 4E rather than the modular rules of 3.x, is that the more exceptional rules you have, the more likely it is that something will be overlooked and need clarification.

For example: If one creature has an ability "Can make an AoO whenever an opponent does X" and another creature has an ability "Not subject to AoO when doing X", then which one is correct if the situation arises?

Actually, that's exactly what happening in 3.x with thicket of blades, and it was completely confusing as to what it actually meant, 4e has fixed this, by making "shift" a specific type of movement which doesn't normally provoke AoOs. Note the Fighter ability specifically states "can make an immediate attack on a shifting foe". Works much better.

Now, granted, these abilities are probably not an example of my concern... Is a "sudden strike" an AoO? It appears that if a crownwing used flyby attack on a swordwing, that the swordwing couldn't use its Sudden Strike...

I guess I don't have much to add for this post, other than a vague uneasy feeling.

No, it's an immediate action, not an opportunity actin, says so right there. And no, it wouldn't get the attack on someone flyby attacking, because the ability specifically states it only works on people who are shifting, which flyby attack isn't.

 

[1of3]

One of my main concerns with the exceptions-based rules of 4E rather than the modular rules of 3.x, is that the more exceptional rules you have, the more likely it is that something will be overlooked and need clarification.

I find all this talk of "exception-based rules" mildly confusing. In the past creatures usually couldn't fly. Except when the text said they can. So what now is exception-based design?

For example: If one creature has an ability "Can make an AoO whenever an opponent does X" and another creature has an ability "Not subject to AoO when doing X", then which one is correct if the situation arises?

There will probably be a rule for such situations, like:

- Defender always wins.
- Higher effect level wins.
- PCs always win.
...

At least, that's what I've seen in several other games, including Magic: The Gathering where this exception-based philosophy probably comes from.

Now, granted, these abilities are probably not an example of my concern... Is a "sudden strike" an AoO? It appears that if a crownwing used flyby attack on a swordwing, that the swordwing couldn't use its Sudden Strike...

I think that has been answered but funny it is. Sudden Strike means making a ranged attack in melee is safer than first shifting away, since both the OA and the Sudden Strike are immediate actions (of which the Swordwing has only one on each creatures turn).


Edit: Thinking about it, even moving away from the Swordwing is more clever than shifting. The ability just shifted from funny to ridiculous.

 

[D'karr]

I find all this talk of "exception-based rules" mildly confusing. In the past creatures usually couldn't fly. Except when the text said they can. So what now is exception-based design?

The exception-based design applies to specific rules that are counter to the general rules. For example, shifting does not provoke OAs, but there are some creatures that have exceptions to this and can attack when you shift. It is not an OA, but it is an attack nonetheless.

I think that has been answered but funny it is. Sudden Strike means making a ranged attack in melee is safer than first shifting away, since both the OA and the Sudden Strike are immediate actions (of which the Swordwing has only one on each creatures turn).


Edit: Thinking about it, even moving away from the Swordwing is more clever than shifting. The ability just shifted from funny to ridiculous.

Except that the Swordwing also has Vicious Opportunist, which deals an extra 2d6 damage on Opportunity Attacks. So sitting around using a ranged weapon on this creature's threat range is not good either. And moving does the same, since movement in a threat range provokes Opportunity Attacks. With this creature you need to pick your poison, because one way or another it will get an attack on you.

BTW, Opportunity Attacks are not limited like Immediate Actions to one per turn. They are one per Opponent. So if two opponents provoke you can take OAs against each. If one of them provokes more than once in your turn you can only get him for one.

 

[cthulhus_pinky]

Also, if you think about it, these are some serious monsters. We are talking about very high level creatures, they should have some very nasty abilities.

One thing that I don't think was mentioned before was the fact that one creature can only one immediate action, so they can only do one Sudden Strike per creature per turn. (Edit:Never mind, I need to learn how to read...)