Shifters and Templates

[Schmoe]

Here's the deal. A PC in a game run by a friend of mine has an epic-level shifter (something like a Druid 20/Shifter 10). He is fond of using templates to shapeshift into absolute monstrosities, including (for example) a fully advanced paragon pyro-hydra.

Is there any sort of limitation on allowing templates? Personally, I would just ban templates as allowable forms - there are still plenty of options without resorting to the templates. After all, what's to prevent someone from just tacking on template after template after template, so that you eventually have a celestial, half-fire elemental, shadow, half-dragon, paragon, pseudo-natural troll?

On a related note, is Spell Resistance a supernatural ability?

 

[Wippit Guud]

Well, there are some limits...

You can only take one 'half-creature' template, cause the other half has to be the base creature, and you can only have two halves.

Usually, you can only take one undead template, because it has to be added to a living being.

All you really need to do is find out what the base creature is, and what the templates turn the creature into... a fiendish orc is no longer humanoid, so cannot be given the vampire template, for example.

 

[Schmoe]

That still doesn't address the problem of multiple templates, and in particular the paragon and pseudonatural templates.

 

[the Jester]

Well, there are some limits...

You can only take one 'half-creature' template, cause the other half has to be the base creature, and you can only have two halves.

Although this makes perfect sense, I don't think it's strictly true (by the rules).

Keep in mind that a 'half-x' doesn't always mean that the creature is the offspring of the base creature and x. Sometimes it's been fused magically, altered, or whathaveyou (see the half-golem for one example, the half-machine for another).

If I'm not mistaken, wild shape only lets you assume an average creature of its type's form, just like polymorph. You can't wild shape into a human with Str 18, for example. So I'd rule that the character couldn't turn into a templated creature. Maybe allow an epic-level feat to let him turn into templated creatures if he's seen them (so if he runs into a half-fiendish minotaur he can shift into one, but not a half-fiendish dinosaur or whatever).

I'd basically say that unless the character has seen a given creature he prolly can't turn into it anyhow- he doesn't know enough about it. Animals being the exception, of course.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Well, 'in character', there's no such thing as a template. Wouldn't a shifter have to know what he was shifting into? He have have seen a half-dragon human, but he wouldn't know what a half-dragon dog looks like.

So, unless he's seen something with 6 templates, he wouldn't be able to shift to it.

 

[Dwarmaj]

The limiting factor is the DM.

Shifters are limited to creatures they are familiar with. They have to have battled or studied the creature. The DM is in control of what creatures the Shifter has access to. If the DM puts a fully advanced paragon pyro-hydra against the party, then the Shifter can change into one on a latter date, otherwise he's not familiar with it and can't take the form.

 

[Schmoe]

Let me propose a hypothetical scenario:

The players are creating 30th level PC's for a "one-shot" campaign using epic rules.

In this scenario, how do you, as DM, justifiably allow or disallow certain templates or combinations? A 30th level PC is bound to have encountered a great many things, and it's not unreasonable for the player to assume that his PC has done extensive travel for the sole purpose of exploring the possibilities.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Silver Griffon]

I have to agree with Jester that a templated creature is not an average member of a species, but it can be argued that a templated creature is not the same species as the base creature. Anyway, it says that your ABILITY SCORES must be average for the creature, but your physical appearance can vary at your whim to anything "within the normal ranges" of the creature. Therefore, you can become an albino water buffalo even though an albino water buffalo is not an average buffalo. But, the new form's ability scores must be average, so that albino water buffalo could not have an 18 Dex.
To repeat what others have already said, I think it comes down to the familiarity rule. If they haven't seen it, they can't become it.
I disagree with Jester's comment that animals are an exception though, because the description of wild shape in MotW specifically sites the polar bear as its example when talking about the need for familiarity. Yes, a druid's nature sense allows him to identify an animal without error, but it doesn't provide familiarity with all animals. Some people have determined that this is a supernatural effect. I disagree. I think it is like the difference between Knowledge(nature) and Wilderness Lore. Knowledge is Int based and represents information and "book learnin'" and Wilderness Lore is Wis based and represents personal experience, or familiarity. Nature sense works more like Knowledge(nature).
Besides, the thread is about shifters, and not all shifters are druids.

 

[Dwarmaj]

The limiting factor is the DM.

Shifters are limited to creatures they are familiar with. They have to have battled or studied the creature. The DM is in control of what creatures the Shifter has access to. If the DM puts a fully advanced paragon pyro-hydra against the party, then the Shifter can change into one on a latter date, otherwise he's not familiar with it and can't take the form.

Tough call. I'd have the PC submit a list of creatures then not allow ones I fealt were "too powerful". It's totally subjective, but that's the limitation of the class.

Shifters also have a HD limitation and from what I've seen, epic monsters have much more than 30HD.

 

[the Jester]

I disagree with Jester's comment that animals are an exception though, because the description of wild shape in MotW specifically sites the polar bear as its example when talking about the need for familiarity. Yes, a druid's nature sense allows him to identify an animal without error, but it doesn't provide familiarity with all animals.

Oh, okay, let me clarify what I meant.

I think that a shifter, druid, or whathaveyou must have encountered a monster in-game to be "familiar" with it, but the same doesn't always hold true with animals. A druid who lives in a temperate forest would be familiar with foxes, black and brown bears, rabbits, and other animals native to the forest without necessarily having to encounter them first (I'd assume that he's been around them). A polar bear, camel, or other creature not native to his home forest is a different story.

On the other hand, he's prolly not familiar with wyverns just because there's a wyvern that lives in said forest, unless he's encountered (and probably fought) it.