Shifters and Templates

[Silver Griffon]

Let me propose a hypothetical scenario:

The players are creating 30th level PC's for a "one-shot" campaign using epic rules.

In this scenario, how do you, as DM, justifiably allow or disallow certain templates or combinations? A 30th level PC is bound to have encountered a great many things, and it's not unreasonable for the player to assume that his PC has done extensive travel for the sole purpose of exploring the possibilities.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

I was making a druid/monk/shifter that was going to be a backup character for a 12th level PC and that came up. We aborted the game when everybody died at once, so I never got to use the character, but this is what I came up with.
Natural animals and plants: Wilderness Lore DC10. Modify the DC by +5 to +10 for animals or plants from foreign climes.
All other creatures are a character level check (1d20 + Level) vs. a CR check (1d20 + CR). DC can be modified for climates as above.
This allows for "on-the-fly" checks for familiarity.

 

[Silver Griffon]

Oh, okay, let me clarify what I meant.

In that case, I absolutely agree with you.

 

[Schmoe]

This is an interesting discussion, and I'll forward the link to my DM buddy. For the sake of simplicity, I think I'm going to suggest that he simply disallow templates, but he may decide to go another route.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Here's the deal. A PC in a game run by a friend of mine has an epic-level shifter (something like a Druid 20/Shifter 10). He is fond of using templates to shapeshift into absolute monstrosities, including (for example) a fully advanced paragon pyro-hydra.

I'm fairly certain he can't use his Greater Wikd Shape ability to become an Advanced form of anything, only the basic form (templated or not). As for templates, my groups been going by the rule that's been mnetioned above -- if you've seen a Half-Fiend Troll, you can turn into a Half-Fiend Troll, but not a Half-Fien Ogre. As for what counts as "familiar," things faced in combat are familiar enough to shift into, as are things researched -- a Knowledge (Nature) check, DC of [Creature's CR + 10] to know of an Animal, Beast, Magical Beast, Plant, or Vermin. Knowledge (Arcana) for Constructs, Knowledge (The Planes) for Elementals and some Outsiders, Knowledge (Religion) for some Outsiders, and Knowledge (Undead) [mentioned in DotF] for Undead. Aberrations & Oozes usually fall under Knowledge (Nature).

 

[Caliber]

Making Knowledge skills one of the factors that determines Shifter knowledge might unduly imbalance Wizard/Shifters in comparison to Druid/Shifters. Probably not by much, however.

But anyway, Silver Griffon, thats a really cool system to determine familiarity of a pre-made Shifter. Would the Character level check versus the monster check be set or increase with level?

ie, If I came in as a 10th level Shifter character, and advanced a level, would my checks for previous familiarity be as an 11th level then?

Oh, and to keep my post on topic, I think if a Shifter sees a monster with a template, they can shift into a monster like that. But not into the form of another monster with the same template (unless they've seen that monster with that template too.)

 

[Planetouched]

I've had two campain in wich we had a PC play a shifter, in both it was way overpowered. The first he played a level 18 char(it was a one-time session). Well, seeing that he had seen many fights(ever thought he could study the wanted template etc. by means of scy, summoning etc?) and he shifted into forms my nice red dragons couldn't harm him much..
The other campain was a level 1-12 campain, I was PC this time. The DM allowed him to take shifter but as soon as he had it started shifting into drow and the like(That's ECL+2), and didn't change back the rest of the day. That meant he had a CR 10 character whilst all the rest was still lv. 8, a little to powerfull won't you say? Well anyway he got killed in the final battle of our army(500 men, 1 gold dragon(my cohort), 1 silver dragon(his cohort), 2 spider eaters vs. the massive army of 1500 and the evil level 17 wiz who was attacking us. We killed him, we used a special artifact for it but we did
Anyways, I'm running my 3rd campain for 3 months now. I banned Shifter all out, together with some other things. I think it's totally broken, even if the restictions about having fought it apply. A + on you CR shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Single Malt]

I've had two campain in wich we had a PC play a shifter, in both it was way overpowered. The first he played a level 18 char(it was a one-time session). Well, seeing that he had seen many fights(ever thought he could study the wanted template etc. by means of scy, summoning etc?) and he shifted into forms my nice red dragons couldn't harm him much..
The other campain was a level 1-12 campain, I was PC this time. The DM allowed him to take shifter but as soon as he had it started shifting into drow and the like(That's ECL+2), and didn't change back the rest of the day. That meant he had a CR 10 character whilst all the rest was still lv. 8, a little to powerfull won't you say?
...

Remember that he now has STR 10, DEX 13, CON 8, suffers penalties in daylight, has none of a regular drow's spell-like abilites and is hated by everyone and his grandmother. I agree that the SR 19 and save bonus is undeniably handy, but he has not gained the bonus to INT and CHA. I wouldn't put him at more than CR 9 even in the most favorable of circumstances and most of the time (unless it's a campaign without sunlight and races that dislike the drow) not even that. This is all IMHO, of course.

To keep the thread on topic I agree that to shift into a troll with six templates, you would have to have experience with a troll with those six templates and you would be unable to just pick off those templates and apply them to every monster in the book. Also the original poster mentioned something about an advanced hydra; IIRC you cannot shift into advanced forms of anything. (A bit silly if you ask me, given the HD and familiarity restrictions, but hey, what do I know)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Even if it hurts: Disallowing Templates seems to be they way to got, since you can only shift into average forms of a creature, and templates are NOT average.

This is the way I play my shifter (therefore I ignore the stupid "does not gain subtype/type abilities" when it comes to Energy Resistances/Immunities... )

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[drnuncheon]

Shifters also have a HD limitation and from what I've seen, epic monsters have much more than 30HD.

Templates, on the other hand, tend to increase the power of a creature without increasing the HD - which is the problem. The shifter's HD limit means they can become a 30 HD creature, or, (if templates are allowed), a 30 HD creature with 6 templates stacked onto it.

Anyway, I'd use the following guidelines:

* Advanced creatures are right out. You can't become a stronger-than-average gorilla, what makes you think you can become a bigger-than-average gorilla?

* If you allow the use of templates, then templated creatures are assumed to be separate creatures. You can't turn into a half-fiend minotaur if you've seen a minotaur and a half-fiend human - 'half-fiend minotaur' is a new type of creature, and you have to be familiar with one to turn into one.

* Just because the player wants to become a paragon pseudonatural lernaen pyrohydra, and just because it's possible within the rules, doesn't mean that one even exists for him to become familiar with. If you as the DM decide that no such thing has ever existed, he's out of luck.

* Make the player keep track of and document unusual forms he is familiar with, and how he acquired that familiarity. If he can say "you threw a half-fiendish ghostly red dragon at us back in the Caves of Peril" then it should be OK to wild shape into that.

* If you're making this character at a high level, consider this: it takes ~13 encounters of a given CR to bump you up a level. Realistically maybe, what, 10% of those are going to be with templated creatures? Have him make a list of the templated creatures he's encountered, one each CR from 1 to (lvl+1), and those are the ones he's familiar with. Make him pre-figure the stats for all of the forms, too, to take the work off of you. (I'm doing this for one player's summoning character.)

J

 

[Schmoe]

Templates, on the other hand, tend to increase the power of a creature without increasing the HD - which is the problem. The shifter's HD limit means they can become a 30 HD creature, or, (if templates are allowed), a 30 HD creature with 6 templates stacked onto it.

Exactly the source of the problem.

Anyway, I'd use the following guidelines:

* Advanced creatures are right out. You can't become a stronger-than-average gorilla, what makes you think you can become a bigger-than-average gorilla?

That certainly sounds reasonable, and something I plan to incorporate as well.

* If you're making this character at a high level, consider this: it takes ~13 encounters of a given CR to bump you up a level. Realistically maybe, what, 10% of those are going to be with templated creatures? Have him make a list of the templated creatures he's encountered, one each CR from 1 to (lvl+1), and those are the ones he's familiar with. Make him pre-figure the stats for all of the forms, too, to take the work off of you. (I'm doing this for one player's summoning character.)

This last is an excellent idea. I think that restrictions like this will certainly help to curb the otherwise fairly limitless power of the class.