Shifty v/ CC: Who Wins?

[Andur]

There isno problem. not even for Kobold PC's. It is a real simple choice, does the Fighter use his immiediate action on a shifting kobold, or does he save it up for the shifting red dragon next to him? (Just an example).

the same thing would be applied to a fighter NPC against kobold PC's, does he whack the first kobld that moves, or does he wait for the Wizard kobold to shift?

The entire point of exception based rules is to make when to use your exception a tactical option. There would only be a problem if the power stated "MUST shift every round as a minor action".

The way I envision "shifty" getting used most the time is to get an extra square of movement. Shift (minor) Move (move) Attack (standard), or Move, Shift, Attack, and then you'll have the Attack, Shift, Move for a "fighting retreat".

 

[D'karr]

And therein lies another problem, or thought really. Two of the kobolds we've seen share the Mob Attack ability that requires them to get a bit closer than is normally wise. I can't help but have visions of enterprising fighters taking advantage of these three things (Shifty+MA+CC) by shifting after every cleave, or whatever attack they use to get an extra attack as the kobold's follow.

Not that this is a necessarily bad thing on itself, more hits for the PCs is always good, butit justfeels a bit fumbly to me for some reason. It almost renders those two kobolds (Skirmishers and Dragon Shields) in a much weaker light. It also makes playing as a kobold a little less likely for those of us who might've been drawn to their nice new Shifty ability. We have to assume that other creatures will get powers that mimic CC or do similar things, it is afterall a low-level ability.

We have to examine this in light of what each thing actually is. Simply because the fighter has several features he can use depending on whether an action provokes. Let's use Kathra's stats as an average, since I don't feel like recreating a character just to get averages right.

A shift never provokes Opportunity Attacks. So Kathra can not use Combat Superiority, which would halt the move on the first square that provoked. But she can use the Combat Challenge, which is an immediate action. Since she can only take one immediate action per round, if there is more than one kobold doing the same tactic, she can only use the combat challenge against one of them.

The 1st level fighter has to use a basic attack for this Combat Challenge, so she will only do 11 points of damage on average (16 Max) to a single kobold. If that kobold has previously not been hurt, that probably doesn't even put him at "Bloodied". If the "shifty" tactic is being used by multiple kobolds, then the kobolds have Kathra in a kobold sandwich and can commence the hurting with the mob attack.

The fighter might attempt to use the Cleave/shift or even Tide of Iron for better position on his turn, but once he has done it he doesn't move again. Then the kobolds can commence the pain lesson.

We saw this happen almost exactly as described in our Scalegloom Hall game. The only difference was that there were several minions and several skirmishers. So Kathra got lucky on her first shot and wiped out one minion but when the rest swarmed her, it took a lot of bolstering from the cleric to keep her fighting. Believe me when those suckers get combat advantage and mob attack they are truly fearsome. Once the kobolds have you surrounded they do not need to shift so the fighters trick is over.

BTW in response to the other question about forced movement, forced movement never provokes Opportunity Attacks. Forced movement is limited to push (away from you), pull (towards you) or slide (any direction). So nobody could use an action to "shift" you. And since forced movement never provokes OA's then no matter how many times a creature slides around the fighter they never provoke an OA.

All in all, we all gained a new respect for kobold tactics. So I see no problem with the two features. The fighter is going to have to decide when he is going to use his features to maximum advantage and when he is being swarmed, the odds are against him. The trick is always to send multiple kobolds, not just one or two against the fighter.

 

[Voss]

I think one point in contention is when the Combat Challenge says the attacked creature stops, where does it stop? Does it stop in the first square that it was in when it attempted the shift, the next or the intended final square for its movement? It clearly can't be the last, since that wouldn't be stopping at all. Since shifting can be more than one square, you could have characters entering a fighter's adjacent square during a shift and attempting to leave it. In that case, I think it would make sense for the stopping to occur at first adjacent square and the enemy be stopped at that point, not the next. So I suspect that if hit, the kobold is stopped in the square it started in, not the one it was going to. We'll see.

The immediate attack from the combat challenge involving shifting isn't an opportunity attack, so it doesn't stop the kobold from moving.

When his opportunity attack/movement ability does come up, I would say that the target stops where it is currently trying to move from- otherwise it isn't prevented from moving, and the ability did very little.

 

[Simonides]

The immediate attack from the combat challenge involving shifting isn't an opportunity attack, so it doesn't stop the kobold from moving.

When his opportunity attack/movement ability does come up, I would say that the target stops where it is currently trying to move from- otherwise it isn't prevented from moving, and the ability did very little.

This is no different than in 3.5. Opportunity Attacks interrupt the action and 'pause the game' the moment they are triggered. I know I read this somewhere regarding 4E, but I may be having D&D/DDM crossover. The moment the enemy begins to move out of the adjacent square or the moment the enemy pulls back his bow string or warms up his fireball: WHAM - opportunity attack. When the attack is resolved, the provoking action hasn't gone off yet. The creature has not yet left the threatened square, the fireball hasn't gone off, the arrow hasn't left the bow. If the creature dies, the action is lost forever.

So, for the Combat Challenge that allows a fighter to halt movement with an Oppy, the creature is still in the adjacent square he was about to move out of.

That being said, the text of the above referenced power says: free basic melee attack not opportunity attack. So, powers that trigger off of opportunity attacks are not triggered by this power. That also means that if someone has a bonus to AC against Oppies, they don't get that bonus against this particular power.

Like M:TG, the game now requires a very careful reading and understanding of terminology. That is the hallmark (for better or worse) of exceptions based game mechanics.

 

[FourthBear]

A shift never provokes Opportunity Attacks. So Kathra can not use Combat Superiority, which would halt the move on the first square that provoked. But she can use the Combat Challenge, which is an immediate action. Since she can only take one immediate action per round, if there is more than one kobold doing the same tactic, she can only use the combat challenge against one of them.

Good point, I was assuming incorrectly that the fighter Combat Challenge ability applied to all attacks made in reaction to movement, rather than specifically opportunity attacks. Actually, I think I may prefer the previous way I was proposing it, since I like fighters being able to restrict even shifting around them. Depending on how things turn out after a few playtests post-release, I may house rule that ability. It may indeed be too much to have fighters stopping shifting around them.

 

[Blue]

The two abilities in question:

SHIFTY (minor; at-will)
The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action.

COMBAT CHALLENGE
When an adjacent enemy shifts, make an immediate melee basic attack against them.

My dilemma is this; since both abilities exist to give their larger source greater meaning, which one wins when Shifty is employed? Does the fighter get his attack even though it was only a minor action? Does the kobold race have an ability that is a great bit less useful in a real fight?

They both win - they aren't at odds at all.

The kobold with SHIFTY gets to shift as a minor action instead of a move action. Fantastic. Great agaisnt my halfling paladin in the playtests. This is a special ability that *reduces the time to do an action*.

The dwarf with COMBAT CHALLENGE gets to make an immediate basic attack against someone who shifts. Did the kobold shift? Yes? Take an immediate action and do a basic attack. This special ability lets you *get a special immediate basic attack vs. a shift*. It matters not if the foe was shifting as a move action or as a minor.

This is only difficult if you make it so - these don't interact at all in rules interpretations.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

 

[cdrcjsn]

Are Opportunity Attacks once per Round or one per Turn?

 

[D'karr]

Are Opportunity Attacks once per Round or one per Turn?

Opportunity actions can be taken as many times as opportunities present themselves but only once per combatant per turn. So if a combatant takes two actions that provoke on his turn, you can take your opportunity action either time he provokes but not both times. If multiple combatants provoke, you can take an OA against all of them.

 

[D'karr]

Good point, I was assuming incorrectly that the fighter Combat Challenge ability applied to all attacks made in reaction to movement, rather than specifically opportunity attacks. Actually, I think I may prefer the previous way I was proposing it, since I like fighters being able to restrict even shifting around them. Depending on how things turn out after a few playtests post-release, I may house rule that ability. It may indeed be too much to have fighters stopping shifting around them.

You can do that in your game, if you please. But then you are making the shift (5' step) into an action that provokes OA. That is not a good idea, IMO.

 

[VBMEW-01]

Played it again, and discovered that my tactics were off, that is all.

Oh well

Guess we all fumble a bit and jump to conclusions from time to time.

Oh, and I think I over-emphasized a bit, because I almost killed the poor fighter. Kobolds don't suck after all.