Shifty v/ CC: Who Wins?

[jeffh]

It's a minor point but the shift does not provoke an OA. It simply triggers and immediate action that the fighter can take when people shift around him.

It is a minor point but important in context. If it provoked an OA, the fighter could instead use Combat Superiority and stop the opponent. In addition, the fighter could do it to as many opponents as "provoked". Since it does not provoke he can only do it once.

Good catch, I stand corrected. But the bulk of my point remains valid.

 

[Celebrim]

Are you serious? If anything, they're more like 3E than 3E is. What's open to interpretation?

If you are willing to accept that the ability works as written, often nothing. But read the Goblin Picador thread if you need an example of why a rule as written is going to cause problems. The rule as written says that a 100 pound goblin picador that hits stops a 32 str barbarian or a 50000 pound dragon from going anywhere.

The amount of errata to explain how that ability actually works is zero. The amount of errata needed to explain how that ability should work is about 300 words.

Personally, I can't wait to send someone up against 10 level 10 warlords, and generate 100 attacks per turn on the party. Wait for errata on that as well.

 

[Grog]

Personally, I can't wait to send someone up against 10 level 10 warlords, and generate 100 attacks per turn on the party. Wait for errata on that as well.

No errata needed, since that ability doesn't work the way you seem to think it does:

Iron Dragon Charge Warlord Attack 9

...

Effect: Until the end of the encounter, as an immediate reaction, an ally of your choice within 5 squares of you can charge a target that you charge.

Emphasis mine. "An ally of your choice." Not "All your allies."

 

[Andur]

If you are willing to accept that the ability works as written, often nothing.

You mean words actually mean things? It's exception based rules, it really doesn't matter how/what/where/why/when a creature can do something "against the rules", it simply can.

And I don't see your 100 attacks either, not in one turn, and definately not every turn, since we've seen no at will powers which do such a thing...

Course exception based rules can be pretty tough on those with reading comprehension problems, temp. or perm.

 

[FadedC]

If you are willing to accept that the ability works as written, often nothing. But read the Goblin Picador thread if you need an example of why a rule as written is going to cause problems. The rule as written says that a 100 pound goblin picador that hits stops a 32 str barbarian or a 50000 pound dragon from going anywhere.

I'll grant you the dragon might inspire a house rule, although the picador does say he can only tug a medium creature and it's possible the actual MM text might apply that to harpooned too. But in general monsters are written up to fight PCs, not 50,000 pound dragons so this will tend to be a non issue.

But the 32 str barbarian requires no house rules. He either spends an action to splatter the goblin or he spends an action to yank the javelin out of the goblins hand. No house rules needed.

 

[ShinRyuuBR]

I don't see the issue, either. Opportunity actions interrupt the actions that provoked them, immediate actions don't. It's quite clear in the Scalegloom Appendix. Combat challenge allows an immediate action when the kobold shifts, by whatever means. Kobold starts shifting, takes an immediate basic attack, then completes shifting. Although immediate actions are called interrupts or reactions, the interrupt doesn't actually interrupt the triggering action, unless it somehow makes it moot. For example, if the interrupt knocked the kobold prone (or unconscious, for that matter), he would not be able to shift, but that is a consequence of being prone (or unconscious), not of taking an immediate attack. What IS confusing is that the interrupt does not actually interrupt, while the OA does.

 

[D'karr]

I don't see the issue, either. Opportunity actions interrupt the actions that provoked them, immediate actions don't. It's quite clear in the Scalegloom Appendix. Combat challenge allows an immediate action when the kobold shifts, by whatever means. Kobold starts shifting, takes an immediate basic attack, then completes shifting. Although immediate actions are called interrupts or reactions, the interrupt doesn't actually interrupt the triggering action, unless it somehow makes it moot. For example, if the interrupt knocked the kobold prone, he would not be able to shift, but that is a consequence of being prone, not of taking an immediate attack. What IS confusing is that the interrupt does not actually interrupt, while the OA does.

Well, there are two types of immediate actions. An interrupt and a reaction. They are both immediate, which means you can only take them when it is not your turn. However, an interrupt does exactly that, it interrupts the action that triggered it and if it invalidates the action then the action is lost. A reaction happens immediately after the action that triggers it. The action that triggers it is completed so it can't be lost.

An opportunity attack is considered and opportunity action and is a different type of action than an immediate one. Even though they are very similar. I imagine that there will be other class features that use this opportuniy action mechanic.

 

[small pumpkin man]

If you are willing to accept that the ability works as written, often nothing. But read the Goblin Picador thread if you need an example of why a rule as written is going to cause problems. The rule as written says that a 100 pound goblin picador that hits stops a 32 str barbarian or a 50000 pound dragon from going anywhere.

The amount of errata to explain how that ability actually works is zero. The amount of errata needed to explain how that ability should work is about 300 words.

Personally, I can't wait to send someone up against 10 level 10 warlords, and generate 100 attacks per turn on the party. Wait for errata on that as well.

Firstly, it's not like they can't just throw it off with little to no chance of failure, secondly, strangely enough, the text on the back of a minis card doesn't have a full descriptive writeup.

As for the Warlord thing, as has been pointed out, it doesn't work like that.

 

[ShinRyuuBR]

Well, there are two types of immediate actions. An interrupt and a reaction. They are both immediate, which means you can only take them when it is not your turn. However, an interrupt does exactly that, it interrupts the action that triggered it and if it invalidates the action then the action is lost. A reaction happens immediately after the action that triggers it. The action that triggers it is completed so it can't be lost.

An opportunity attack is considered and opportunity action and is a different type of action than an immediate one. Even though they are very similar. I imagine that there will be other class features that use this opportuniy action mechanic.

That's exactly what I said. What is not 100% clear is when the Scalegloom appendix says "An opportunity action interrupts the action that triggered it", does "interrupting" mean the action is aborted, or merely that the opportunity attack resolves before the triggering action resolves? In my native language, interrupting something generally means aborting it.

 

[Kordeth]

That's exactly what I said. What is not 100% clear is when the Scalegloom appendix says "An opportunity action interrupts the action that triggered it", does "interrupting" mean the action is aborted, or merely that the opportunity attack resolves before the triggering action resolves? In my native language, interrupting something generally means aborting it.

In English, it doesn't mean that. An "interrupt" merely resolves before the action you interrupt--unless your action does something that makes it impossible to complete (you attack and kill the target, for example, or you shift out of range in response to a melee attack), the action you interrupted still completes normally. To use a real world example, if you're talking and I interrupt you to say something myself, you aren't prevented from finishing what you were saying--you might wait until I finish, or you might just talk right over me. If, on the other hand, you're talking and I interrupt you by breaking a vase over your head and knocking you unconscious, then you're not going to complete your action.