Shifty v/ CC: Who Wins?

[ShinRyuuBR]

To use a real world example, if you're talking and I interrupt you to say something myself, you aren't prevented from finishing what you were saying--you might wait until I finish, or you might just talk right over me.

It could be argued that in D&D terms, retrying the interrupted statement could be a new, separate action. Still, if native English speakers understand it without ambiguity, then my bad.

 

[Celebrim]

No errata needed, since that ability doesn't work the way you seem to think it does:

Emphasis mine. "An ally of your choice." Not "All your allies."

It works like this, each character is a warlord. And each has used thier daily power.

Warlord #1 charges. He uses his ability to grant a charge to Warlord #2 as an immediate action. Warlord #2 charges, but this triggers warlord #2's special ability to grant a charge as an immediate action. So Warlord #2 targets warlord #3, who charges and grants an immediate action to warlord #4, and so forth. So the original target gets charged a number of times equal to the number of warlords with the ability in the room - limited only by the available frontage of the target. That finishes Warlord #1's action. So now its Warlord #2's turn. He charges a different target, and grants Warlord #1 an immediation action and the whole thing starts up again. Then its Warlord #3's turn, and the whole cavalcade continues.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

It works like this, each character is a warlord. And each has used thier daily power.

Warlord #1 charges. He uses his ability to grant a charge to Warlord #2 as an immediate action. Warlord #2 charges, but this triggers warlord #2's special ability to grant a charge as an immediate action. So Warlord #2 targets warlord #3, who charges and grants an immediate action to warlord #4, and so forth. So the original target gets charged a number of times equal to the number of warlords with the ability in the room - limited only by the available frontage of the target. That finishes Warlord #1's action. So now its Warlord #2's turn. He charges a different target, and grants Warlord #1 an immediation action and the whole thing starts up again. Then its Warlord #3's turn, and the whole cavalcade continues.

Except that characters only get one immediate action a round, so this silliness only works for one pass, and then everyone is out of immediate actions for that round.

 

[FadedC]

Except that characters only get one immediate action a round, so this silliness only works for one pass, and then everyone is out of immediate actions for that round.

You also can only activate this power on your turn when you charge. So there is no way for the first person who charges to bring more then person with them, because the others have not yet activated their power. And if you try to bring somebody already adjacent to a target along, they get an AoO.

So yeah it's nowhere NEARLY as strong as Celebrim would make it out to be.

 

[Kordeth]

You also can only activate this power on your turn when you charge. So there is no way for the first person who charges to bring more then person with them, because the others have not yet activated their power. And if you try to bring somebody already adjacent to a target along, they get an AoO.

So yeah it's nowhere NEARLY as strong as Celebrim would make it out to be.

You can only activate it on your turn with a standard action, but the issue is that the power says until the end of the encounter, one ally can charge when you charge. Since the power doesn't make a distinction between a standard-action charge and an immediate-reaction charge, unless there's some global rule on this sort of action cascading, the scenario Celebrim describes is entirely possible beginning on the second round of combat--and since the benefit isn't limited to charges against the original target, it's pretty effective for the whole of the combat. It's not game-breaking, but it is a potentially nasty tactic for a group of warlords, assuming there's no general rule prohibiting it.

 

[glass]

How about both of them win?

This. There is no contradiction between the two abilities so they both work as normal.

EDIT: Yep, just joining the chorus!


glass.

 

[FadedC]

You can only activate it on your turn with a standard action, but the issue is that the power says until the end of the encounter, one ally can charge when you charge. Since the power doesn't make a distinction between a standard-action charge and an immediate-reaction charge, unless there's some global rule on this sort of action cascading, the scenario Celebrim describes is entirely possible beginning on the second round of combat--and since the benefit isn't limited to charges against the original target, it's pretty effective for the whole of the combat. It's not game-breaking, but it is a potentially nasty tactic for a group of warlords, assuming there's no general rule prohibiting it.

Oh yeah you can do it on turn 2. The problem is that everyone must have already charged once, which means everyone is probably already in melee. The odds of everyone having a legal charge target at that point is pretty low, and for every charge you make your probably going to be subjected to an attack of oppurtunity. So your enemies are probably going to be getting as many extra attacks as you are. And of course on turn 1, when warlord#1 charges and brings warlod#2 along....warlord#2 has to charge a new target to activate his power....again drawing an AoO.

Then there's the fact that a charge generaly has to be a basic melee attack. So these 10 warlords are using their entire turn just making basic attacks rather then actually say activating warlord powers.

Ultimately I think the 10 warlords would be much nastier if only a couple used iron dragon charge and the others used something different.

 

[glass]

Based on the rules I've read so far, it will be slower.

..and based on what everyone who has actually played it is saying, it will be much faster.


glass.

 

[Grog]

It works like this, each character is a warlord. And each has used thier daily power.

Warlord #1 charges. He uses his ability to grant a charge to Warlord #2 as an immediate action. Warlord #2 charges, but this triggers warlord #2's special ability to grant a charge as an immediate action. So Warlord #2 targets warlord #3, who charges and grants an immediate action to warlord #4, and so forth. So the original target gets charged a number of times equal to the number of warlords with the ability in the room - limited only by the available frontage of the target. That finishes Warlord #1's action. So now its Warlord #2's turn. He charges a different target, and grants Warlord #1 an immediation action and the whole thing starts up again. Then its Warlord #3's turn, and the whole cavalcade continues.

But this still doesn't get around the fact that each warlord (except #1) has used their immediate action on the first pass, and thus can't use another one until next round.

 

[Colmarr]

It works like this, each character is a warlord. And each has used thier daily power.

Warlord #1 charges. He uses his ability to grant a charge to Warlord #2 as an immediate action. Warlord #2 charges, but this triggers warlord #2's special ability to grant a charge as an immediate action. So Warlord #2 targets warlord #3, who charges and grants an immediate action to warlord #4, and so forth. So the original target gets charged a number of times equal to the number of warlords with the ability in the room - limited only by the available frontage of the target. That finishes Warlord #1's action. So now its Warlord #2's turn. He charges a different target, and grants Warlord #1 an immediation action and the whole thing starts up again. Then its Warlord #3's turn, and the whole cavalcade continues.

But it doesn't work like that.

Iron Dragon Charge is a standard action.

Warlord #1 uses his IDC to charge and triggers a charge from Warlord #2. Although Warlord #2 has charged, he hasn't had a chance yet to use a standard action, so his IDG hasn't triggered yet. Warlord #2 is now in combat. When his initiative order comes up, he can either (1) move out of melee and IDG back in (provoking an OA and triggering a charge from Warlord #3) or (2) fight as usual.

The free charge that IDG grants to an ally is not a free standard action. It can't be used to trigger powers, just like the free attack from the fighter's combat challenge can't trigger combat superiority.

Yes a charge by 10 warlords is likely going to hurt, but against any opposition that can survive that charge, I actually think it's a very suboptimal use of a daily power.