Shillelagh and quarterstaffs

[Caliban]

I have a question for Caliban:

In your game, as I understand it, the spell actually transforms the stick (quaterstaff, club, cudgel, whatever) into a new weapon, named Shillelagh. I would assume that while the spell is operating, any feats the character might have with (normal) weapon, such as Weapon Focus, would be ineffective. Don't you think this hamstrings the characters a bit too much?


K.

You assume incorrectly. It's magic, their feats still work.

 

[Umbran]

I believe it does. Nothing you have stated has been sufficient to convince me otherwise.

Hmm. There's a sentence in the spell that I haven't seen mentioned yet:

"If you do not wield it, it behaves as if unaffected by this spell."

By your interpretation, Caliban, for the duration of the spell, a staff would become a single weapon in the hands of the caster, but a double weapon in the hands of anyone else.

While not impossible, it seems a bit odd. Does the darn thing's shape change when it changes hands?

Your argument is that it ceases to be a staff of club, but turns into a shillelagh. But if that were the intent, would they not also give full weapon stats for a shillelagh, a weapon that appears nowhere else? It seems simpler to assume that all weapon stats not specificlly mentioned in the spell remain as they were - a club stays one handed, a staff two handed, and double headed. It being only a first level spell, and to remain consistent with other weapon enhancing spells, only one head of a staff gains the benefit.

 

[KarinsDad]

It being only a first level spell, and to remain consistent with other weapon enhancing spells, only one head of a staff gains the benefit.

People keep mentioning this, but I know of only two occurrences where this happens:

1) Making a double weapon masterwork.
2) Crafting a magical double weapon.

I have yet to see any other spell or information in the FAQ or errata that Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, or other spells have this property.

Can someone point me to other sources that state this?

 

[Umbran]

Can someone point me to other sources that state this?

One doesn't really need other sources. A strict reading of the PHB will suffice (where bold face is my own emphasis).

PHB, pg 225: "Magic Weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls."

PHB pg 125: "You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack as if you were fighting with two weapons."

"Two weapons" != "a weapon". When using a double weapon this way, the combatant is really using two weapons. But the spell only affects one, so only one end can get the enhancement. QED. The rules for crafting masterwork and magical weapons are only further examples of this general idea - a "double weapon" is actually two weapons who just happen to share a length of handle.

As a complete aside, I don't think the authors were thinking of lots of whirling around like in Spanish style staff fighting. I expect they were more likely considering a more basic style. In fact, It takes very little skill to use both heads of a quarterstaff effectively....

Find a broom.

Hold it in front of you with two hands. Your left hand holds the brush-end in front of your left hip. Your right hand holds the handle-end in front of your right shoulder. Your hands are about a body-width apart.

Fully extend your right arm ahead of you at shoulder level, while bringing your left hand to your left hip. This is a strike with one end of the staff. Now, bring your right hand back to your right shoulder, while extending your left arm in front of you to shoulder level. This is a strike with the other end (also known as a "hip thrust").

No complicated reversal of the weapon is required. There's reasons why the standard quarterstaff is a simple weapon.

 

[Kai Lord]

A quarterstaff "give an extra attack" the same way someone picking up a sword and a dagger gets an extra attack.

Incorrect. You can conceivably stab with both a sword and dagger at the same time against a single opponent. Or you can chop with both weapons at the same time.

Literally impossible to attack one person with both ends of a quarterstaff at the same time. Period. Using each end against one opponent requires separate maneuvers and should be covered under multiple attacks according to BAB.

If someone with a quarterstaff can make two separate attacks with stiff penalties then a guy with a shortsword should sure as hell be able to take the same penalties and attack twice. But he can't. And that's stupid.

Not broken. Just stupid. 3E is without question the best incarnation of D&D ever. But that doesn't mean every single rule is perfect. But hey, whatever gives you an extra attack, right? I can only assume your leprechaun staff wielders brand mercurial greatswords when they lose their staffs. Forget about mercuial weapons being utterly ridiculous in combat, ITS IN THE RULES, RIGHT?

 

[Kai Lord]

Did you miss the to hit modifier rules for double weapon fighting without a feat, or are you just a troll?

Obviously you've missed the entire point. But it doesn't matter, you enjoy the way you play. Far be it from me to presume to disallow someone else from exploiting the rules so their characters can look completely ridiculous.

 

[Kai Lord]

Why? Is there some mystical enchantment on a quarterstaff that prevents anyone except uber-Dudes from reversing it?

Reversing a weapon and making an additional attack in one round is called "multiple attacks" and is limited by BAB. Swinging a shortsword forward then reversing the swing and slicing backwards in one round requires a BAB of at least +6/+1. But a commoner can do this with a quarterstaff with a measly +0.

Thus, the quarterstaff has wonky "haste" powers. I'm not thrilled with the rules for two-weapon fighting, but at least it is conceivably possible to do what the rules allow.

 

[KarinsDad]

One doesn't really need other sources. A strict reading of the PHB will suffice (where bold face is my own emphasis).

PHB, pg 225: "Magic Weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls."

PHB pg 125: "You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack as if you were fighting with two weapons."

Note the words as if in this sentence. The fact is, a quarterstaff is one weapon, either end of which can be used to attack. It is a weapon (as you pointed out in the Magic Weapon description), not two. If it gets Sundered, the entire weapon is sundered, not just one end.

Also, two weapon fighting is a fighting style, not a weapon type. You can use this style with either two single weapons, or one double weapon. One. Plus, you do not have to fight with this style with a double weapon.

"Two weapons" != "a weapon". When using a double weapon this way, the combatant is really using two weapons. But the spell only affects one, so only one end can get the enhancement. QED. The rules for crafting masterwork and magical weapons are only further examples of this general idea - a "double weapon" is actually two weapons who just happen to share a length of handle.

What you are doing here is extrapolating a set of rules which are there merely for balance in creating superior weapons, to other areas. The rules do not state that casting Magic Weapon does not affect both ends of a double weapon, rather that is an extrapolation of other rules. The rules say that Magic Weapon "gives a weapon...". A quarterstaff is a weapon, regardless of which fighting style it is used with.

Sundering or disarming is sufficient to illustrate this.

Quite frankly, unless someone comes up with an actual rule somewhere on it, this is a house rule extrapolated from other similar rules.

 

[drnuncheon]

Incorrect. You can conceivably stab with both a sword and dagger at the same time against a single opponent. Or you can chop with both weapons at the same time.

Two-weapon fighting does not specify that both attacks are at the exact same instant, only that the extra attacks occur in the same round. Since a round is 6 sconds long, there are plenty of other instants in which to attack.

I suggest you actually do some research on any form of fighting that uses two weapons. Striking with both weapons simultaneously is generally not done.

If someone with a quarterstaff can make two separate attacks with stiff penalties then a guy with a shortsword should sure as hell be able to take the same penalties and attack twice. But he can't. And that's stupid.

Not true. See, when you attack with one end of the quarterstaff (as a double weapon) you by necessity are setting the other end up for an attack.

The shortsword weilder has to pull his weapon back from its strike and only then can he deliver another strike. The quarterstaff weilder already has his weapon ready, and only needs to deliver a strike.

Unless your phat mad sw0rd sk1llz let you teleport your swordarm back into position, of course.

J
...what? It's no siller than dancing gay leprechaun style.

 

[hong]

Reversing a weapon and making an additional attack in one round is called "multiple attacks" and is limited by BAB.

Nonsense. D&D has never assumed that individual attack rolls represent individual swings with a weapon, at least in melee combat (ranged combat is something else).

Swinging a shortsword forward then reversing the swing and slicing backwards in one round requires a BAB of at least +6/+1.

You must have been playing too much Neverwinter Nights, if you actually believe this. Just because a computer game uses visuals where each character gets one swing with a sword for every 5 points of BAB doesn't mean it's correct.

But a commoner can do this with a quarterstaff with a measly +0.

Nonsense. You need to rethink your model of how D&D combat actually works.

Thus, the quarterstaff has wonky "haste" powers. I'm not thrilled with the rules for two-weapon fighting, but at least it is conceivably possible to do what the rules allow.

I'm not sure that you know what you're talking about.