Ship to ship combat

[Iron Sky]

Rogue Trader had just enough character action mixed with broader scope fleet battle stuff for our group. We have some people in our group who really like tactical combat systems and others who immediately lose interest if they scope leaves 1st person.

In 4e, I did ship combat by making ships elites about 10 levels higher than the party. Each ship got actions like a normal creature, but PCs could use one of their ship's minor actions to use one of their own powers (requiring some on-the-fly adjudicating for some powers). Each PC got their own ship.

You could also do this for military units the PCs are commanding.

The attached ships are the ships the PCs could choose from before a massive airship battle. The Godshields are impenetrable, opaque but permeable shields that can withstand any amount of damage. They explode like nukes when their failsafes are disabled and purposely destroyed.

There were some fighters involved too for which I just used swarms with close-burst 1 attacks.

 

[jonesy]

So, does anyone know a system where?
1) There is no grid.
2) Armor provides damage resistance; the weight of shot is compared against the thickness of the ship's armor.

Man O' War, and the very similar Uncharted Seas. Both do their best to have fast paced combat, and both are straight up fantasy, so realism takes the hit.

There's a good comparison of the two here:
The Drunk Dwarves Man o War Vs. Uncharted Seas: The Gauntlet Thrown

 

[Mark CMG]

I haven't played Man O' War though I have played many games with tall ships over the years. My wargaming and tabletop miniatures gaming has rarely strayed beyond Medievals and Ancients but when it does it is usually for Tall Ships systems of various kinds. If you could find a reasonably priced copy, I do like -

Age of Sail | Board Game | BoardGameGeek

1) There is no grid.

I agree that this makes a game with Tall Ships better for the granularity in positioning it provides.

2) Armor provides damage resistance; the weight of shot is compared against the thickness of the ship's armor.

I'm not sure I think DR for Tall Ships works for me. If someone is hit, they are hit, IMO, and after so many hull hits you start to sink. Most systems I have played that I have liked have score cards with check boxes for hit locations with each section being able to sustain a certain number of hits before it becomes critical to the whole (which is effectively like DR, I suppose). Also, such systems often have other factors to consider when particular sections are hit including: (all applicable to period, of course) % of crew lost, proximity to powder storage/ammo, possible mast damage, potential rudder damage, oar damage, cannon damage, passngers and freight damage or destruction, etc. Hull and sail damage also affect speed and maneuverability. In games with fleets, there is communications ability to consider and what the loss of it entails. I particularly appreciate systems that take into account drifting and how the wind affects speed, distance, and drift even while sailing at full speed. Wind and deck pitch also affecting ranged combat is a factor not many systems manage to integrate if they even try. Systems with simple, flat movement rates don't capture the feel of sailing for me. Anyway, that's about all I can think of right now on the subject. If I have more, I'll pop back in.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm not sure I think DR for Tall Ships works for me. If someone is hit, they are hit, IMO, and after so many hull hits you start to sink.

The problem with that, is that it doesn't match IRL in the slightest. A 14 gun sloop-of-war armed with a mixture of say 8 and 12 lb cannons is virtually useless against a 72 gun ship-of-line because a 8 or 12 lb cannon would have pretty much zero penetration on its armor belt. You have to remember, the SOL's had armor belts of 24in. thick oak. Small cannon balls literally bounced off of them. Sure, you could fire some chain shot and maybe tear up some sail, but that's about it. On the other hand, the SOL's 32 lber's would smash clean through the sloop. Any one direct hit could potentially sink her.

Before the introduction of torpedo's and guided missiles, the interaction of the ship's armor belt and the caliber of the guns they fired was the dominate factor in combat. Post age of sail, ships were classified according to the size of the guns and their intended invunerability to guns carried by the smaller class. So, a light cruiser might carry 6" guns and be designed with armor that could not be pierced by the smaller classes 4" guns. Whereas, a heavy cruiser might carry 8" guns and be designed with armor that could not be pierced by 6" guns. And so forth. The small was basically true through the age of sail. Throughout the age of cannon, the dominate strategic consideration was whether you could bring the most ships capable of carrying the largest class of cannon. If you have a game where a fleet of small ships can threat by gunfire a larger warship, then you might have an interesting game but it doesn't really capture the reality of naval warfare.

Of course, you could always apply a D&Dism and simulate DR through penalties to hit, but I would think that getting this to work out right would be difficult. Not saying it couldn't be done, and if it was done well (compare cannon size class to target's armor and come up with a to hit penalty maybe) then it would satisfy my minimum realism requirements.

In games with fleets, there is communications ability to consider and what the loss of it entails. I particularly appreciate systems that take into account drifting and how the wind affects speed, distance, and drift even while sailing at full speed. Wind and deck pitch also affecting ranged combat is a factor not many systems manage to integrate if they even try.

All of that is true, but at some point you have to put it on a computer. I think you have to decide which details you consider most important to prevent the complexity from overwhelming the game play. Deck pitch due to weather is a fairly straight forward modifier, but things like drift is something I'd probably give up in favor of critical hits or some other complexity. Very few systems, land or sea, really have good systems for handling realistic limitations in the coordination between units. I suppose DBM maybe might provide a example of how to make it work, but unlike combat on land, you can't really assume unit remains motionless without orders. Maybe assume unit stays on course without orders? Not sure.

Your point is well taken about flat movement rates not in the slightest capturing the feel of sailing. I probably should have added a third requirement.

3) Speed of movement depends on the points of sail (varying according to rigging), and differences in how close a vessel can haul to the wind according to the rigging are accounted for.

 

[Steel_Wind]

The problem with that, is that it doesn't match IRL in the slightest.

I agree wit this, especially as it relates to the Age of Sail and penetrating a hull. Though masts and rigging were always vulnerable. It was possible to nibble a SOL to death by ducks, rather than chomp it in two as if by an alligator.

Increased range of the SOL guns made that a daring proposition, however.

3) Speed of movement depends on the points of sail (varying according to rigging), and differences in how close a vessel can haul to the wind according to the rigging are accounted for.

Speed of movement and speed of handling are two different concepts. A smaller ship is more deft and with a decent crew, could usually sail closer to the wind and, at all times, was easier to maneuver. Sloop rigged vessels can sail closer to the wind than a square rigged ship.

That said, a bigger ship is a faster ship when running or on a reach. The maximum speed by a keeled sailing vessel (as distinct from a powered vessel or a ship which can hydroplane either by engine or by sail) may be obtained by this simple formula:

Max Speed (in knots) = 1.34 x [square root of the hull's length of waterline (measured in feet)]

This is a matter of physics and fluid mechanics caused by successive trailing bow waves; it is not possible to violate this law unless the ship can be made to plane out of the water at the bow. Go faster than that and your bow will start to nose into the water and WILL break apart the vessel. If you are ever being towed by another vessel, this is why you stand near the bow with a hatchet to cut the tow line in case the idiot in front goes too fast.

A larger ship is always, by definition, a potentially faster ship. The hull length in contact with the water is the critical element. (This is also why a catamaran or trimaran is potentially faster than a single hulled vessel).

The great sea voyages of the Cutty Sark and the other great clipper ships at the climax of the Age of Sail were fast because they were long and had massively huge sail surfaces.

 

[Mark CMG]

The problem with that, is that it doesn't match IRL in the slightest.

As I recall, the chance to hit larger, heavier vessels with smaller guns was low and the hits were tracked toward places where they could do damage, so I think your concerns were covered in other ways.

All of that is true, but at some point you have to put it on a computer. I think you have to decide which details you consider most important to prevent the complexity from overwhelming the game play. Deck pitch due to weather is a fairly straight forward modifier, but things like drift is something I'd probably give up in favor of critical hits or some other complexity.

Naw. Tables, my friend, and matrices. It's al about distilling the needed information onto an easy to reference card or two (usually a two-sided single sheet of cardstock would serve for most systems I played over the years). As for drift, I've often seen transparent templates used to handle this effect with ever widening arcs for turns. You'd flip the template depending on which way you were turning, and then either use the more narrow or wider arc if a cross wind was blowing. For a head or tail wind, you'd increase speed or decrease speed, and there were various modifiers for rigging, too, some assigned because of ship type. It was all very easy to use and play was quick so you'd limit the time the opponent had to strategize.

Very few systems, land or sea, really have good systems for handling realistic limitations in the coordination between units. I suppose DBM maybe might provide a example of how to make it work, but unlike combat on land, you can't really assume unit remains motionless without orders. Maybe assume unit stays on course without orders? Not sure.

Some systems I have seen required written orders and simultaneous movement, and with multiple players you either were allowed to converse or not depending on proximity, smoke screens, signal flag status, effectiveness of current surviving leadership, etc. In two player games it is just not possible to effectively simulate such things without having fairly extensive rules for which ship in a fleet you control and what other ships will do if you lose communications. Not impossible, but more frustrating, IME, than it is game-enhancing.

3) Speed of movement depends on the points of sail (varying according to rigging), and differences in how close a vessel can haul to the wind according to the rigging are accounted for.

Don't forget currents. In campaign games it was often fun to catch an opponent in waters that you knew and they did not, because knowledge of local currents, obstacles, etc. We mostly played period games/campaigns, so much of what could be done with rigging was limited to what ships were available. I don't recall this being overly complex, as there were plenty of newer players and sons of fathers, both who played, and that level of complexity would likely had made that more difficult.

 

[Mark CMG]

Oh, and I just posted this in another thread but it might prove useful to someone reading this thread, too, so I will add it here -

Mongoose has some old downloads of ship plans for their Seas of Blood, Ships of the Elves, and Ships of the Goblinoids d20 supplements that might do -

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/sotg_decks.pdf

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/elf_ships.pdf

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/sob1.pdf


I used to resize the B&W images, print them out, and glue stick them to foamcore board for some decent d20 ship to ship combat.