Shooting into a Grapple - Penalties?

[The_Universe]

We had a question come up during our last session, and I ruled quickly "on the fly" but I'm curious what the official penalties are for shooting into a grapple with a ranged weapon? Are they more severe than firing into a normal melee?

Lastly, are those penalties different in D20 Modern than they would be in D&D?

Rulesmasters - fill me with your knowledge!

 

[Infiniti2000]

More or less severe, depending upon the other combatants and the situation at hand. Firing into a grapple gives you a random chance to hit any of the grapplers. This random chance is up to the DM to decide (i.e. even odds or weighed by size, etc.). However, the grappling opponents are possibly not threatening anyone and therefore (arguably) are not considered in melee, therefore you do not get the -4 penalty to attack on the ranged weapon.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I believe this is the same for melee attacks into a grapple. Don't they also have 50% chance to hit the wrong target?

If so, and the negated -4 for firing into melee is true, then they are the same penalty.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I believe this is the same for melee attacks into a grapple. Don't they also have 50% chance to hit the wrong target?

No. There is no specific downside to attacking someone in a grapple vs. not in a grapple. There are only benefits (loss of Dex).

 

[darthkilmor]

We had a question come up during our last session, and I ruled quickly "on the fly" but I'm curious what the official penalties are for shooting into a grapple with a ranged weapon? Are they more severe than firing into a normal melee?

There are no penalties for a melee attack. a ranged attack randomly hits one of the grappling opponents. I dont think it's spelled out but you prolly should determine who you hit First, then roll the attack. for instance:
BoB and ToM are grappling.
BoB has an AC of 30 and tom an AC of 20 (already adjusted for being in the grapple).
Randomly determine who you're attacking, the see if the attack roll actually hits. It makes no sense for you to be attacking tom(ac 20), get a att total of say 22, and hit BoB, whose AC is 30.
Anyone else want to pitch in here?

Lastly, are those penalties different in D20 Modern than they would be in D&D?

I have no idea. that would prolly be in the d20 modern book which i dont have with me

 

[reveal]

I have no idea. that would prolly be in the d20 modern book which i dont have with me

Or you could look in the d20 Modern SRD.

They seem to be exactly the same as in D&D.

 

[reveal]

I usually take size into consideration. For example, if a Medium size enemy is grappling a Medium sized PC, there's a 50% chance to hit PC. If a Large size enemy is grappling a Small sized PC, I'd probably say around a 10-15% chance to hit the PC.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I usually take size into consideration. For example, if a Medium size enemy is grappling a Medium sized PC, there's a 50% chance to hit PC. If a Large size enemy is grappling a Small sized PC, I'd probably say around a 10-15% chance to hit the PC.

My houserule is to use a system where the smallest creature is 1 and each size category higher is double that. Then, the chance is rolled on a die equal to the total (or larger, rerolling invalid numbers). So, if two medium creatures were grappling a large creature, then I'd roll a d4 and on a 1, hit one medium creature, on a 2 hit the other, and on a 3 or 4 hit the large creature. If one of those medium creatures were a small creature, then I'd roll a d8 and on a 1 hit the small creature, on a 2-3 hit the medium creature, and on a 4-7 hit the large creature, and reroll an 8. It's not too complicated and works well for those extremely rare cases when someone fires a ranged weapon (or spell) into a grapple.

A few questions of my own:

1. A creature with improved grab who took a -20 penalty is not grappling, so you do not roll randomly to hit such a creature. However, do you roll randomly to hit the victim of such a grapple? Consider the case where a spellcaster's summoned monster grapples the party fighter with improved grab at -20. If the spellcaster wants to hit the fighter with a ray spell, does he have a chance to hit his monster?

2. When you grapple, you move into your opponent's space, or you pull your opponent into your space (improved grab). Does this actually imply you share the space or, say in the case of a medium creature and a large creature, does the medium creature only occupy one of the four squares of the large creature's space? Who's option on which square?

3. Can you squeeze while grappling, or forced to be squeezing while grappling?

 

[Infiniti2000]

A few questions of my own...

*bump*

Anyone?

 

[azhrei_fje]

A few questions of my own:

1. A creature with improved grab who took a -20 penalty is not grappling, so you do not roll randomly to hit such a creature. However, do you roll randomly to hit the victim of such a grapple? Consider the case where a spellcaster's summoned monster grapples the party fighter with improved grab at -20. If the spellcaster wants to hit the fighter with a ray spell, does he have a chance to hit his monster?

I would think so. Taking the -20 penalty that only a single creature involved in the grapple is "not grappling"; all the others still are. I fail to see any logic in giving them a benefit without having them take the penalty.

2. When you grapple, you move into your opponent's space, or you pull your opponent into your space (improved grab). Does this actually imply you share the space or, say in the case of a medium creature and a large creature, does the medium creature only occupy one of the four squares of the large creature's space? Who's option on which square?

I would treat it just like mirror image.

(Yes, that was meant to be facetious, and no, I don't want to discuss mirror image yet again. See below for reference link.)

3. Can you squeeze while grappling, or forced to be squeezing while grappling?

Is there anything that says you can't squeeze while grappling?

If not, then I'd say "go for it". Moving while grappled (but not squeezing) and sharing the same space were covered in the (somewhat) recent Rules of the Game article on grappling, but I don't think your other questions were.

Sharing the same space: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a

Moving while grappled: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a

Note that this page http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a says that creatures with Improved Grab don't need to make opposed grapple checks to move and drag their opponents along with them.

HTH.