Shorten skill list...

[Afrodyte]

Thunhus,

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that I like what you're trying to do. I agree with MeiRen that the nature of your campaign must be taken into account, but given what you said here, I think there are other possibilities as well.

As a previous poster said, creating new uses for the skills you'd like to see used more often is a great way to get players to start using them. If they see that a successful DC 20 Appraise check lets you determine whether an item is magical or not, I bet they'd invest some skill points into it. If a successful DC 20 Decipher Script check allows you to read magic, even wizards would want to have the skill since they could use their skill slots on something else. Think about ways magical effects can be replicated through the use of certain skills. If spellcasters weren't the only ones who could create magic armor and weapons, you might see more fighters taking up Craft and Appraise.

Another option is to give PCs more access to a greater variety of skills. Give them enough so that they could have interests and abilities beyond typical adventurer stuff. The easiest option would be to give the PCs more class skills and/or skill points. Increasing everyone's base skill points by 2 (8 at 1st level) covers the bases while giving opportunities to expand the repertoire. Giving additional class skills according to a character's background makes them even more versatile. You can even add feats that allow you to take a cross-class skill as a class skill, or even grant alternative boons for 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level such as a bonus class skill. Something else you may want to consider is reducing the cost of taking cross-class skills. Paying twice as much for half the effect is a powerful deterrent from characters even thinking about taking cross-class skills. Getting rid of the double cost of cross-class skill ranks while keeping the maximum ranks could persuade some players to branch out a bit.

 

[Aaron2]

Here's some random thought ...

Appraise, Forgery, Handle Animal, and Use Rope can just be options to appropriate Vocation skills (forex, Vocation(Sailor) includes using ropes or Vocation(jeweler) to appraise jewelry)
Likewise, Disguise and Escape Artists (and possibly Slieght of Hand)should be folded into the apropriate Perform.
Bluff and Intimidate belong together.

Some of the skills, such as Concentration should use normal ability checks and not be skills.

 

[Afrodyte]

Actually, I think Bluff and Diplomacy have more in common than Bluff and Intimidate. While all three skills cover getting what you want from people, the difference between Bluff/Diplomacy and Intimidate to me is as great as the difference between Dexterity and Strength. One works by inspiring like (or love) and confidence. The other works on inspiring fear and undermining confidence. However, I think a use for Intimidate that gets overlooked is leadership skills or at least imposing (rather than finessing) you will onto somebody through fear and/or awe. Someone had a skill called Command that basically covered how people did this, and I'd favor putting in something like it that covers intimidation as well as a general ability to inspire awe and/or fear (perhaps Inspire? Motivate?). I'd put Bluff and Diplomacy together under Persuade.

I agree with Aaron2's statement that some skills are better off as checks. Concentration, Decipher Script, Escape Artist, and Use Rope come to mind. Actually, Use Rope can be combined into a number of Craft and Profession skills.

 

[Thunhus]

Thanks for your suggestions.

One of my main goal is to make game play smoother. It's lot of easier for example have only sneak vs. notice rolls (move silently/hide vs. listen/spot).

I know now that if I bundle some skills like tumble and balance, listen and spot, I should bundle all other skills also to balance skills with each other.

I'm planning now two campaigns that will use bundled skills.
1) Pulp game: Players are pulp heroes in 1920-30's. They will adventure all over the world like China, Africa, USA. Action oriented play style like Indy and Mummy movies. I'm going to use Adventure!d20 rules.

2) Roma Legion campaing. Playes are Roman legionaries and they will travel where they are told. Lots of combat and intrigue. Some magic (not for players). I got to get Black Company and Rome book from Green Ronin. Sven Hassel's novels are target.

Players have to depend more skills because they are lacking magic items in both campaigns.

 

[Li Shenron]

Players have to depend more skills because they are lacking magic items in both campaigns.

Then don't forget this Afrodyte's point:

Think about ways magical effects can be replicated through the use of certain skills.

It's a very good thing to focus on, if you expect a low-magic supply for the characters, who therefore have to deal with challenges only with their mundane abilities.

Merging the skills will give each of them more skills to use, but won't let them accompish anything beyond the PHB uses of those skills. Other books (Kalamar and Rokugan settings IIRC, Complete Adventurer) may give you several suggested extra uses for many skills, but you can just look at the low level spells in the PHB, and decide if you want similar non-magical abilities from existing skills.

For example:

Cure Light Wounds -> Heal, only 1/day per person

Detect Poison -> Survival to identify a poisoned food or object, Heal to identify someone has been poisoned, Knowledge (Nature) to know an animal/plant is poisonous

Mending -> Craft (any one) or Disable Device (for mechanical tools), but they take more time

Resistance -> Diplomacy, it takes 5 minutes of speach to boosts Will ST only for a minute, max 1/day

Detect Animals or Plants -> Knowledge (Nature), time varies since it's based on searching clues of their presence

Goodberry -> Knowledge (Nature) or Profession (Herbalist) to find healing plants in the wild, time and max amount depends on local flora

Pass Without Trace -> Survival checks to conceal tracks

Animal Messenger -> Handle Animal should teach a critter for this, but may take days or weeks

Comprehend Languages -> Decipher Script

Bless/Curse Water -> Knowledge (Religion) may allow a rite to replicate the spell, same costs but longer time

Deathwatch -> Heal all the way

Detect C/E/G/L -> Sense Motive, with a fairly high DC

Endure Elements -> Survival may be used instead of ST, or to get(yourself)/give(others) a bonus to ST for heat and cold

Remove Fear -> Diplomacy on your own friends

Augury -> Sense Motive as a "sixth sense"

Daze -> Bluff with fairly high DC

Hold Portal -> Open Lock or Disable Device can be used to jam a door

Grease -> Alchemy may be used to craft a similar substance

True Strike -> Concentration for a bonus on next attack roll

I am not obviously saying that skills shouls replicate spells exactly! Just that the PCs may achieve lesser similar effects, with longer time required, and perhaps even with the need of tools or appropriate material.

edit: For instance, I wouldn't allow Concentration to give +20 on next attack roll, but you could let a character do one single attack (as a full-round action) with a Concentration check to give a bonus of +2/+4 for example

 

[ender_wiggin]

In general, I am against combining skills. I would like to see more skills and more skill points for all classes, allowing for a lot of specialization and diversification within classes.

However, since I don't want to necessarily hijack the thread, I can only say that I am adamantly against combining move silently and hide into stealth.

If the two skills are combined, then the stealth skill becomes an automatic (probably a maxed out too) for any rogue and any PC with a high dexterity. People are already taking both of these skills, so why combine them? It could destroy balance (the game effect, not the skill). In fact, it's been a while since I've seen a rogue without at least one of these two skills. There's a reason why rogues have 8 skill points. Let them make use of them.

 

[IndyPendant]

I have long felt that skills are the most unbalanced aspect of DND. Inspired by this thread, I have created a tentative list of the changes I think fit reasonably well (with shameless stealing of other people's ideas mixed in. Suggestions and comments are welcome.
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Skills that have not been changed:
Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magical Device.

Skills that have not been changed, but may be examined later:
Heal, Knowledge, Perform, Sleight of Hand

Changed skills:
Acrobatics:
A new skill that combines Balance and Tumbling. While Tumbling really doesn’t need a boost to be useful, balance is all-but-useless in 98% of any situations PCs encounter, and there is no other skill (except perhaps Jump) that fits. So tumbling gets a bit of a boost. Merry christmas.

Alchemy:
Can be used to ID potions (DC level to follow), and you do not have to be a spellcaster to take this skill.

Appraise:
Is a weak skill, and not worth it’s own spot as is. So, it can now be used to identify whether an item is magical or not, and also whether an item is of masterwork quality. Takes 1 minute’s examination per item, but can be combined with an attempt to determine the item’s value. DC levels to follow, probably lowest for MW quality items and highest for major magic items. Cannot determine any other information other than magical, and I will roll in secret. Can take 10 or 20. Must be done consciously; is not automatic.

Athletics:
Climb, Jump, and Swim are among the most useless skills in the game. Therefore, not only are they combined into this one skill, but when a player chooses this skill they can pick a ‘specialization’. That specialization gets a +2 bonus that stacks with all other bonuses.

Decipher Script:
This is the most useless skill in the game, bar none (unless you design an entire campaign around it). Therefore, a successful use of this skill on a scroll will act as a Read Magic for that scroll. (DC levels to be determined.)

Diplomacy:
This skill and Gather Information are weak skills. Therefore, they have been combined into one. Name may be changed if I find something better. I also like the idea of using this skill to spread rumours; perhaps some rules will follow.

Disable Device:
This and Open Lock are arguably weak skills. Therefore, Open Lock has been absorbed into Disable Device.

Escape Artist:
Another very weak skill, and so is Rope Use. These two skills have limited similarity—but they also don’t really fit anywhere else. So they have been combined into one skill. I am also searching for a suitable name for this skill.

Influence:
Bluff and Intimidate are weak skills with limited application in a hack-and-slash system. Therefore I have combined these skills into one. One side-effect is a char can use Cha when trying to intimidate someone through force of personality (Str is still used when a char tries to intimidate someone physically).

Language:
Allows you to read and write as well as speak a language (assuming you are literate). Costs 2 skill points per language if on your race/class list; 4 skill points (or more in rare cases) otherwise.

Nature Lore:
Survival is a somewhat useful skill—but most of the time, only as a foundation for tracking. Handle Animal is a weak skill. Therefore, these two skills have been combined. Name may be changed to avoid confusion with Knowledge (Nature).

Ride:
Handle animal is a weak skill, except in animal-specific campaigns, or arguably for druids and rangers. Therefore, ride can be used to train mounts and pack animals only. It can also be used to control wagons, since only Vocation is another suitable candidate. Merry christmas again.

Skullduggery:
Disguise and Forgery are utterly useless skills in most cases. This combination doesn’t address that fully, to bring them up to useful levels, but it’s a step in the right direction. (I also don’t like the name, so I’ll probably be changing it when I find something better.)

Vocation:
Craft and Profession are never, ever taken except as PrC prereqs, or for pure flavour purposes. Therefore, they have both been combined into this skill. You would use Int to create a specific item, and Wis to earn a living.
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Some mechanics still need to be worked out; synergy bonuses, which classes have access to which skills, etc etc. But this is good enough for a Beta, to get some input from you. What do you think?

Thanks.

 

[MeiRen]

Like your sig indypendant.

I think the social skills are hugely powerful, even in a fairly combat heavy game. Don't combine Bluff, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy with each ot her. Combine them with o ther skills, but not each other. Making Sense Motive easyto acquire ruins one of your best tools as a GM (an NPC who lies to the PCs), and Diplomacy and Bluff are just incredible. They're actually better, IMO, in a fairly combat heavy game, because there the GM is more likely to say "you roll a 35, everyone loves you" than "sorry, the plot demands that the NPC has their own motivations. Or at least role play it out."

And again, consider what kind of campain you want to run, vs. the kind of campaign d&d was originally designed for. Back in the day , it was all Dungeon Delving all the time, and beingable to find traps was an important function on the Rogue. Some of that carried over into 3rd ed. So, if you don't do much dungeon delving, Search, Open Lock, and Disable Device are much less useful.

 

[IndyPendant]

Thanks, MeiRen. It's sort of my philosophy with so called 'news' agencies: just another form of dubious entertainment. But that's a rant I should restrain for now, to stay on topic. : )

If your comments on the skills though were also directed at me, then I agree that Bluff, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy can have many uses in the game, and should not be combined with each other. In my list, I left Sense Motive alone, combined Diplomacy with Gather Info, and Bluff with Intimidate.

I think those balance out well--of course, if the campaign is very social oriented, you would do well to leave Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive alone.

But then, if you're into a social campaign, then wth are you doing playing DND? It's designed as a tactical, hack-and-slash system. Tons of other, more-rp-oriented, very good systems out there *cough Gurps cough*...: )

 

[mmadsen]

If the two skills are combined, then the stealth skill becomes an automatic (probably a maxed out too) for any rogue and any PC with a high dexterity.

Incidentally, can you imagine anyone sneaking around catacombs, ambushing monsters on a regular basis, without learning how to hide and move silently? Almost all adventurers should probably speak multiple languages, be able to survive in the wild, etc. But that's another issue...