Shortened buff spell durations: Good or bad?

[Bauglir]

Getting up to +3 to a save DC or attack roll is not an astounding influence? Have you conveniently forgotten it costs 36,000 gp to get a +6 stat boost item?

Stat boost items last forever, don't get dispelled, and provide bonuses not available through buffs, such as bonus spells.

If everyone in your world uses 2-handed weapons and heavy armour, clearly the colour of the sky there is slightly different to over here.

They're not used by everyone, but they're at least as common among fighters as statbuffs are among wizards.

That's the rogue's schtick, so what d'you expect? As far as I know, the wizard's schtick is much broader than casting fox's cunning and endurance on himself. Of course, as we know, the sky in your world is a slightly different colour. No doubt it's due to stray arcane emissions from constant use of these buff spells.

Indeed it is, which is why the buffs represent such a small subsection of the wizard's spell list. And hiding is not the rogue's shtick, that's skill versatility.

Many casters won't bother with Spellcraft, especially if they're clerics without high Int. Others won't bother with Concentration if they're not primarily casting spells in melee.

Every caster finds themself in melee at some point. Damn few of them don't take concentration.

Ooh, does it have to be relevant?

No actually, that's the point of analogy. It mirrors a situation, while having no actual relevance to it.

If you intend to introduce stupid analogies, sure.

That's what it takes whenever you flat refuse to address the point stated directly (instead choosing a constant stream of personal jibes). That being, with the empower ability taken away, exactly what makes the stat buffs overpowered?

By the time the sorc can afford to waste a known spell on identify, the party will have far easier ways of identifying things.

After Identify, the only better way to identify things is Analyze Dweomer, not available until 11th level (or 12 for sorc). Besides the sorc can function with a 'wasted' spell right from the start. They aren't quite as dependant on their spells in the lower levels.

 

[hong]

Stat boost items last forever, don't get dispelled, and provide bonuses not available through buffs, such as bonus spells.

A stat buff spell effectively lasts forever, can be recast if dispelled, doesn't cost money, and relatively few monsters have dispelling.

They're not used by everyone, but they're at least as common among fighters as statbuffs are among wizards.

I beg to differ. In our high-level group, we have exactly _one_ person in heavy armour. It's severely overrated.

Indeed it is, which is why the buffs represent such a small subsection of the wizard's spell list. And hiding is not the rogue's shtick, that's skill versatility.

Ah yes, the "skilled person" schtick. It doesn't work. Think a bit on rogue abilities before trying that one out again.

That being, with the empower ability taken away, exactly what makes the stat buffs overpowered?

They are frickin' BORING, a hassle to keep track of, and a cheapass way of getting stat boost items for free. Casting a spell should be more than just an everyday event, aka the ", shower, shave, cat's grace" routine.

After Identify, the only better way to identify things is Analyze Dweomer, not available until 11th level (or 12 for sorc).

Hello in there. This stuff is what you pay NPC sages for, if you don't have a wizard or a cohort specifically for support purposes.

Besides the sorc can function with a 'wasted' spell right from the start. They aren't quite as dependant on their spells in the lower levels.

You've never actually played a sorcerer, yes? I can tell.

EDIT: No bypassing the profanity filter, please -- Dinkeldog

 

[Bauglir]

A stat buff spell effectively lasts forever, can be recast if dispelled, doesn't cost money, and relatively few monsters have dispelling.

Agreed on 2 counts, although I'd contend the recast point. How many buffs do you have memorised? I don't often see wizards and clerics memorizing backup buffs, in case the originals are dispelled. Sorcerers will likely take 1 or 2 of the 6, so there's some redundancy there I suppose, still it can hardly be assumed that they are available for recast.

I beg to differ. In our high-level group, we have exactly _one_ person in heavy armour. It's severely overrated.

Full plate offers high ac, with a low opportunity cost. (A 12 can be allocated to dex). While your touch ac will be low alongside someone with lighter armour and higher dex, the total AC is unequalled. It depends on your preference really (and I feel it is balanced - I quoted heavy ar as an example because it is popular ime at least)

Ah yes, the "skilled person" schtick. It doesn't work. Think a bit on rogue abilities before trying that one out again.

The actual rogue abilites are largely about good reflexes and about versitility, not about hiding. Hiding is optional, and one of the many options open to rogues, yet it is near universally taken. Does that mean it's overpowered? I don't think it does.

They are frickin' BORING, a hassle to keep track of, and a cheapass way of getting stat boost items for free. Casting a spell should be more than just an everyday event, aka the ", shower, shave, cat's grace" routine.

Fair enough. On the other side of the coin, buffs are only sensible to cast before combat starts, and more often than not the players will not get advance notice of a combat, so this reduction will effectively take them from overused to near-unused; an entire reversal. Hence my opinion that the change was too much. Secondly it removes their out-of-combat functionality as many people have mentioned. Surely there's a middle ground?

Hello in there.

Again with the jibes.

This stuff is what you pay NPC sages for, if you don't have a wizard or a cohort specifically for support purposes.

Depending on the adventure, easy access to sages may not be assumed. I've played in many adventures that occurred 'far from civilisation'. As far as cohorts go, well a feat costs more than a spell.

You've never actually played a sorcerer, yes? I can tell.

Again with the jibes. Yes I've played plenty of sorcerers (I prefer them to wizards in fact) and at low levels their BAB only lags a few points behind the others, so they can easily hold their own with a light crossbow, and use their second spell (a level1 sorcerer knows 2 spells) to mage armour the monk/rogue/whatever or magic missile the enemies. Casters at low levels are never that impressive.

EDIT: altered the quoted text that attempted to bypass the profanity filter.

Inline editorial opinion--"Hello in there," is a jibe and should be avoided as it serves no purpose other to heat up the thread. "You've never actually played a sorcerer, yes? I can tell," isn't really a jibe; it's an assumption. It suggests you have no experience because you haven't reached the same conclusion, but doesn't, say, suggest you're stupid because you haven't reached the same conclusion.

--Dinkeldog EN World Moderator

 

[Delgar]

Also keep in mind the Piratecat in an ealier thread mentioned that the cost of the permanant stat boosters was also going to be increasing. Which makes sense if the spell gets change to 1 minute/level.

Delgar

 

[Grog]

There are several alternatives to the Fly spell: spider climb, numerous items, and several other spells or abilitites. Therefore, the Fly spell isn't overpowered.

Well then, since there are alternatives to the stat buff spells (items), that means they aren't overpowered either. QED.

Dispell, on the other hand, is the only real way to deal with over-buffed spellcasters. Poly Self, Divine Power, Transformation, and Divine Rightousness turn any spellcaster into the ultimate melee machine: far better than a comparable fighter. The only good way to fight that is dispell or greater dispell. This means that buffs are very powerful and need to be limited. All the spells mentioned have a fairly short duration and can be delt with by running away for a few minutes.

Unless, of course, you can't run away. How many DMs are going to design an encounter which can be beaten with ease just by running away for a few minutes?

And you're still missing my main complaint here - the use of stat buff spells will not be limited for the PCs enemies, who only have to worry about one fight in a day and can thus expend all of their resources on it, and will not have to spend the first few rounds in battle casting their buff spells, since they will more than likely know when the PCs are coming and be able to prepare. It is only the PCs who are limited by this change - which isn't fair.

If the stat buff spells were too powerful (which was absolutely not true IME) then the way to fix it was to reduce their power level. That would have affected both PCs and NPCs equally.

I also note, with some amusement, that I hardly saw any complaining about stat buff spells before this change was announced. It was only after WotC announced that they were being nerfed that lots of people spoke up about how overpowered they were and how much they needed to be nerfed. Interesting.

 

[Benben]

Yay!

Buffs were too common for my tastes. It felt too much like Everquest. I want characters to be interesting because of what they can do, not because of what they own or what has been cast on them.

Even worse they were boring. Monte Cook's Mark of (Element) were far more interesting to me.

 

[LokiDR]

Unless, of course, you can't run away. How many DMs are going to design an encounter which can be beaten with ease just by running away for a few minutes?

Any DM who doesn't allow the PCs to run away is trying to kill them off. A few bad rolls, some bad tatics, and miscalculation in planning can lead to very bad situation. If the PCs can't run from it in many cases, they should look for a new DM.

And you're still missing my main complaint here - the use of stat buff spells will not be limited for the PCs enemies, who only have to worry about one fight in a day and can thus expend all of their resources on it, and will not have to spend the first few rounds in battle casting their buff spells, since they will more than likely know when the PCs are coming and be able to prepare. It is only the PCs who are limited by this change - which isn't fair.

If the stat buff spells were too powerful (which was absolutely not true IME) then the way to fix it was to reduce their power level. That would have affected both PCs and NPCs equally.

PCs, surprize the NPCs nearly as often as NPCs get the drop on them. I'm sorry your experice is different, but it seems to be different on several points.

This change will force the party to rely more on scouting, tatical use of spells, and alternatives to combat. That leads to more interesting games. Casters will also run out of resources faster, since the buffs are short term. This means caster will start to be limited by repeat combats in a day, like they are supposed to.

I also note, with some amusement, that I hardly saw any complaining about stat buff spells before this change was announced. It was only after WotC announced that they were being nerfed that lots of people spoke up about how overpowered they were and how much they needed to be nerfed. Interesting.

I have dislike caster superiority since before 3e, and buffs are only a part of it. I would be happy to see Permancy get a good once over. I have ranted against spell effects that effectively last forever for almost as long as I have been on this board. Stat buffs were just "standard" spells, and I didn't think to question them. Now that they have been brought up for change, I like the notion.

 

[Grog]

Any DM who doesn't allow the PCs to run away is trying to kill them off. A few bad rolls, some bad tatics, and miscalculation in planning can lead to very bad situation. If the PCs can't run from it in many cases, they should look for a new DM.

There's a big difference between "running away because we're about to get killed" and "running away for just a few minutes until that wizard's spells wear off and then coming back to kill him." What is the wizard doing during that time? Just standing there stupidly waiting to be killed?

PCs, surprize the NPCs nearly as often as NPCs get the drop on them. I'm sorry your experice is different, but it seems to be different on several points.

I'm not talking about surprise - I'm talking about NPCs knowing the PCs are coming and having time to prepare. Since it's usually the PCs who are invading the NPCs territory, and not the other way around, the NPCs usually know they are coming.

This change will force the party to rely more on scouting, tatical use of spells, and alternatives to combat. That leads to more interesting games. Casters will also run out of resources faster, since the buffs are short term. This means caster will start to be limited by repeat combats in a day, like they are supposed to.

Um, casters already were limited by repeat combats - they ran out of spells. 1 hour/level buffs didn't change this. In fact, casters usually run out of resources the fastest. With enough healing items, fighters could concievably fight any number of baattles in a day. The same isn't true for casters.

I have dislike caster superiority since before 3e, and buffs are only a part of it. I would be happy to see Permancy get a good once over.

3E Permanency is already worse than useless. Are you arguing for it to be nerfed further?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

3E Permanency is already worse than useless. Are you arguing for it to be nerfed further?

Well aparently dispel magic doesn't exist. We've all been making permanency useless and long terms buffs balanced with a non existent spell.

 

[LokiDR]

There's a big difference between "running away because we're about to get killed" and "running away for just a few minutes until that wizard's spells wear off and then coming back to kill him." What is the wizard doing during that time? Just standing there stupidly waiting to be killed?

What is the wizard doing when the PCs run because they are losing badly? Different reason, same situation.

I'm not talking about surprise - I'm talking about NPCs knowing the PCs are coming and having time to prepare. Since it's usually the PCs who are invading the NPCs territory, and not the other way around, the NPCs usually know they are coming.

Know to within a few minutes? Traps take longer than that. And a good party doesn't let the NPCs know the are comming.

Um, casters already were limited by repeat combats - they ran out of spells. 1 hour/level buffs didn't change this. In fact, casters usually run out of resources the fastest. With enough healing items, fighters could concievably fight any number of baattles in a day. The same isn't true for casters.

No, the long buffs meant that the caster could do most of his job in the moring and have spells for the odd occasion he really needed. See poly, cat's grace, GMW, GMW. Instant archer, no worries about durations. Also works on other members of the party. So the PC wizard can act like a morning buff machine and not worry about much of anything else for that day.

3E Permanency is already worse than useless. Are you arguing for it to be nerfed further?

Permanent darkvision and see invisiblity for measly 2000 xp? I would never call that useless. I am fairly certain you have never seen a person abuse these spells.