D&D 4E Should 4e martial artists have "monk" flavor?

[Cadfan]

The fundamental problem with modelling non mystical unarmed combat in D&D is that D&D is a game that focuses on lethal, armed battles between weapon wielding, armor wearing combatants. Unarmed combat is typically used in nonlethal battles between unarmed, unarmored persons.

This creates two problems.

If you want your unarmed fighter to fight (armed) orcs and dragons with his bare hands, you have to come up with an explanation for why he can do so competently. Realistically, a completely nonmagical nonmystical non-otherwise-augmented guy is going to have serious trouble fighting against someone else who is carrying steel.

Now, that's not a problem if what you want is for your unarmed combat to augment your otherwise armed character, and to give him a backup plan for when he's disarmed, or isn't carrying a weapon. In that case, unarmed combat works great, and has a natural role. Except it isn't a very big role in most games. Most DMs will let a player at least carry around a dagger, and once you've got that, you don't have much need for unarmed combat skills. Plus, there's little reason to add much detail to a combat style that will be rarely used.

So my personal feel is this.

Make the monk as mystical as you can. Go nuts.

Create feats available to fighters that let them fight effectively when unarmed. Something to represent some martial arts training they went through while learning all their other weapon skills.

And finally, create some hybrid feats that let a character mix armed and unarmed combat. Make it so that a person with a longsword in one hand and nothing in the other is more effective if they know a bit of martial arts. Grappling and tripping do this a bit already, but there's a lot more room for tossing in things like a snap kick to the gut of your foe during a melee.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well if with 4e the whole idea of Martial Power Source is that at higher levels PCs can do non-human things without relying on "mysticism" or "magic" then don't see why a unarmed combatant can't be the same.

 

[Cadfan]

Well if with 4e the whole idea of Martial Power Source is that at higher levels PCs can do non-human things without relying on "mysticism" or "magic" then don't see why a unarmed combatant can't be the same.

Because he needs something to do until high levels.

 

[Gloombunny]

If you want your unarmed fighter to fight (armed) orcs and dragons with his bare hands, you have to come up with an explanation for why he can do so competently. Realistically, a completely nonmagical nonmystical non-otherwise-augmented guy is going to have serious trouble fighting against someone else who is carrying steel.

This is another reason I like the swordsage so much more than the monk. The aikido-esque Setting Sun maneuvers make the whole unarmed thing a lot more plausible than the PHB monk's "fists like axes and skin like armor" shtick. I mean, yeah, in real life using judo against a swordsman when you're unarmored is a very bad plan. But it's not impossible the way punching through steel armor with your bare hands is. You'd just have to be crazy good at it to succeed with any reliability.

I'm a lot more willing to accept "this character is skilled to an unrealistic degree" than I am "this character can do things that are flatly impossible, just by training really hard".

 

[Satori]

I've been waiting (apparently to no avail) for a "Complete Monk" or "Complete Brawler" supplement to come out.

In this supplement, I see a section for alternative class features that allow all classes to give up something in exchange for unarmed fighting.

i.e. a Fighter gives up all weapons and armor, a Cleric gives up Turn Undead, a Wizard gives up a familiar, etc...

The idea, of course, is to create an option for ALL classes to fight unarmed without getting pigeon holed into the Monk class.

Unarmed fighting, with ANY flavor, is cool.

Few things are as satisfying as punching the BBEG in the face so hard his cousin explodes.

 

[Incenjucar]

Personally I'm just going to work the pugilistic warriors into another pair of classes (defender and striker), that are along the lines of Incarnium totemists, but are simply modifying their bodies instead of using semi-permanent magic items, so that their fists and skin are as iron, etc.

Also has the benefit of eliminating the need for ki to explain why an elf can kick someone's skull in like a horse or leap like a hare or shrug off arrows like a rhino.

Flavor can be applied as desired... whether you want to be a Greek Hero or a Shao-Lin.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Few things are as satisfying as punching the BBEG in the face so hard his cousin explodes.

Lol, good one.

 

[Arkhandus]

I want a class that can be tooled into a savate savant, an akido adept, a bare-knuckle brawler, a kung fu expert, a judo master, a karate combatant, a sweaty wrestler, or any other kind of unarmed fighter as the player sees fit.

I also would like to see a Shaolin-style Monk who gets all the flowery mystic powers along with decent unarmed combat skillz.

The first should just be a Fighter who takes the appropriate feat and talent/power choices. There's really no need for a separate, mundane/martial, unarmed combatant class.

The second I think deserves to be in D&D as a separate class, the Monk that's been around so long. Mystic powers from their strong philosophy and dedication to a martial discipline, but also very good armed and unarmed combat ability (just not as powerful as a Fighter when it comes to kicking butt, but with more special defenses, special attacks, and movement abilities).

 

[Kaodi]

The Monk may be a really cool class to use the new " multiclassing " with. A Monk/Fighter, a Monk/Cleric, a Monk/Wizard, a Monk/Warlock and a Monk/Paladin would probably cover a LOT of archetypes.