D&D 5E (2014) Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[Guest 85555]

Ok, you get an "equivalent" that also purges the devil from all the details, I'll happily look. That seems a pipe dream for now.

My guess is healing surges will be in the game as an optional healing rule, but not as part of the core default. People seem to either really like them or really hate them. They are going to have to find a way to make both these camps happy in 5e.

 

[Hassassin]

I'm not saying it has to be implemented in the same manner as 4e, I'm just asking for an equivalent that fits within the framework of 5e.

Equivalent in what way?

This thread includes a few aspects where 4e healing differed from earlier editions:

1. Healing scales with base hit points
2. Soft cap on hit points healed per day
3. Healers need not sacrifice attacks
4. Common rest cycle for hit points, spells and abilities
5. Non-magical hit point recovery
6. All PCs can restore their own hit points

1 can clearly be solved without anything HS-like, just by making all healing a % of total hp. 3 is also orthogonal to HS.

5 and 6 are as well, since you could give everyone class features or skills that can be used to heal, but personally I wouldn't want those to be "fixed".

That leaves 2 and 4 for clearly requiring a per-PC resource that all or most healing consumes. Personally, I find number 4 to be the main reason I dislike the HS mechanic. I don't see a need for 2, but that's not a huge issue.

Edit: BTW, those two (2 and 4) have lowest support in the poll. That suggests some those who like 4e healing could get all they want from a system without healing surges. That's at least somewhat encouraging.

 

[Izumi]

No, you decide what he does. He stops, collects himself, goes on the defensive for a few seconds (could be anything from 5 to 30 seconds basically). Then when he's wiped the blood out of his eyes, taken a look around and figured out what he needs to do, maybe watched his opponent a bit to figure out what to do next, etc, then he goes back into the fray full force with new determination.

What, you don't think people stop, collect themselves, 'get it together' and then throw themselves back into it with renewed vigor? This is so basic and classic a thing to see in sports for instance. Heck, most sports have a rule that lets everyone pause and collect themselves every so often. Sports aren't as extreme as combat, we need not assume every football players takes an SW after every play, but you can practically point out the moment when it happens. I remember Joe Montana getting some monster hit and he's lying on the ground shaking his head, and then he just slowly stands up, shakes himself, trots back to the huddle and then throws a touchdown. What is that, clerical healing???!!!!

Did you just compare a football game to actual life or death combat with medieval weapons? You seriously think people repeatedly barraged can take rests, repeatedly block, and hold back without being overcome? This kind of misguided notion is exactly why silly and unnecessary munchkin mechanics crept into an RPG descended from a Medieval Wargame. The most feared sword art in Traditional Japan was the Satsuma Han Yakumaru Nodachi Jigen Ryuu (薬丸野太刀自顕流). It has one technique. That's right, using a unique force generating body mechanic, they run screaming and leap into a devastating cut at perfect distance from diagonal. Then they keep bashing that angle until you are overcome. They were indoctrinated from youth not to fear death, and give neither quarter or chance for second winds or adequate defenses. Try to understand why the tactic worked, and reconsider what you think you know.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

But actually suffering for only five minutes?

Ok, until the morning, if they're out of surges.

Well, just being short of surges IS IMHO a form of suffering. Surge loss is IME not really trivial. No more so than being some hit points down was in any earlier edition. You're closer to the edge of what you can do, and in neither system does this have a real immediate effect on what you can do right this minute.

As for what happens at the end of the day and how an Extended Rest and whatnot works, that's a related topic, but not quite the same thing. I'd certainly be interested in seeing a more flexible mechanic there.

Ok, you get an "equivalent" that also purges the devil from all the details, I'll happily look. That seems a pipe dream for now.

Well, we'll just have to see. It seems hard to imagine how this is going to be dealt with in a way that is entirely satisfactory to everyone, but like I said before, I think we all have to be a bit willing to work with it. I've personally never gotten all worried about the mechanics of an RPG. Some are better than others, but it is all really about play styles that are supported vs what is desired. I think this is why I get a bit bothered by people coming along and pounding on tables and saying that they can't abide this or that detail of a game. Really, people need to be able to just go on ahead and play and have fun. You really can do that. Everyone better learn to do that if they're actually going to be playing one overarching edition of D&D.

 

[KarinsDad]

IMO what they do is grant the Player some control over the narrative in respects of their character. Nothing bad.

Actually, I agree that they give players control, but it's more of a gamest control (I'm no longer hurt) than it is a narrative one.

And most of it is how it does that which bothers many people. It allows the player to say "Well no, your Ooze didn't actually boil my face off with acid and I'm dying because of that, instead it just knocked me to the ground".

The DM gives this graphic description of what happened to the PC, but a short rest and no magic and the PC is all fine and dandy.

Some people love this theater of the mind and some people like a system where players cannot change the plausible physics of the game world. A Dragon biting your PC unconscious is just a heart beat away from death, not a heart beat away from "What'd I miss while napping?".

 

[CleverNickName]

I'm interested in what 5e can bring to the table in terms of IMPROVING what I have in 4e.

I don't really think they can do that in 5E, though. When they released 4E a few years ago, they used an "improving the previous edition" approach, and it ended up making a lot of people angry. I hope they don't try to do that again.

 

[harlokin]

Equivalent in what way?

This thread includes a few aspects where 4e healing differed from earlier editions:



1 can clearly be solved without anything HS-like, just by making all healing a % of total hp. 3 is also orthogonal to HS.

5 and 6 are as well, since you could give everyone class features or skills that can be used to heal, but personally I wouldn't want those to be "fixed".

That leaves 2 and 4 for clearly requiring a per-PC resource that all or most healing consumes. Personally, I find number 4 to be the main reason I dislike the HS mechanic. I don't see a need for 2, but that's not a huge issue.

I would probably favour all characters getting a Second Wind-type mechanic, which would allow them to recover some Hit Points (maybe end a Condition like Stunned or paralysed) once per combat.

Enough to give a character a second chance, but no constantly yo-yo-ing Hit Point total.

 

[Naszir]

Did you just compare a football game to actual life or death combat with medieval weapons? You seriously think people can take rests, block, and hold back without being overcome? This kind of misguided notion is exactly why silly and unnecessary munchkin mechanics crept into an RPG descended from a Medieval Wargame. The most successful and feared sword art in Traditional Japan was the Satsuma Han Yakumura Nodachi Jigen Ryuu. It has one technique. That's right, They run screaming and cut at perfect distance on the diagonal. Then they keep doing it until you are overcome. They had no fear, and gave neither quarter or chance for second winds or adequate defenses. Try to understand why the tactic worked, and reconsider what you think you know.

Err, since when is every combat in a fantasy world going to mimic a traditional attack from ancient japanese warrior? And even so you are telling me that no one ever was able to block the attack or get away from it? D&D is modeling heroic fantasy not real life. However, there is some basis for a second wind both in fantasy and real life. There is no basis for the fact that no one ever was able to get away from Satsuma Han Yakumura Nodachi Jigen Ryuu.

 

[Naszir]

I would probably favour all characters getting a Second Wind-type mechanic, which would allow them to recover some Hit Points (maybe end a Condition like Stunned or paralysed) once per combat.

Enough to give a character a second chance, but no constantly yo-yo-ing Hit Point total.

I like the idea of a second wind as only being temporary hit points. You get them but if you still have some left over at the end of the encounter they go away. That makes more sense to me.

I do understand why second wind as being any type of true healing is jarring.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Enough to give a character a second chance, but no constantly yo-yo-ing Hit Point total.

Actually, I think getting a grip on the yo-yo-ing hit point total would solve half the problems all by itself, regardless of whether you had some form of surges or not. Obviously, the exact mechanics for 4E surges would have to change somewhat--if only in the numbers--to get that effect. But in 4E, it is as much a function of huge hit point totals and massive damage inflation, as it is the surge numbers themselves (an expansion of what 3E started, BTW). The surge numbers are merely set high to work with that other stuff.

I have my doubts that any solution would satisfy all the people here, and not so much on an edition disagreement as in how much to prioritize "immersion" and whose to prioritize versus making a clean design first and then trying to give it some sense of verisimilitude. But certainly, the task would be substantially easier than otherwise, with smaller hit point and damage numbers.