D&D 5E Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[harlokin]

I like the idea of a second wind as only being temporary hit points. You get them but if you still have some left over at the end of the encounter they go away. That makes more sense to me.

I do understand why second wind as being any type of true healing is jarring.

Well, I'm a bit of a radical, I would like Healing Magic to be temporary, and the only permanent recovery method to be natural healing. Never gonna get that though.

 

[KarinsDad]

The problem is every 'constraint' you propose is to simply eliminate any of the nice things that surges do model. Your proposal was ridiculously limited and would add nothing to the game that some simple proportional healing rule wouldn't add. Don't toss out some useless crumb and then tell me you're willing to compromise, lol.

I think a vastly superior system of:

1) Hit points represent luck, courage, fatigue, etc.

2) Wound points represent real wounds.

No healing surges needed. PCs get one Second Wind per day (my preference as per Star Wars IIRC) or per encounter to rally with.

Every 10 hit points does 1 wound point, so a 25 hit point shot does 2 wound points which makes critical hits nastier, but 4 hit point shots do 0 wound points. PCs could get into barroom brawls where they take no actual wounds because the punches and kicks are not damaging enough, they just get knocked out. Minions often don't do wound points. But, BBEGs might do quite a few.

PCs have wound points = CON.

Wound points require magic or significant rest to heal.

Hit points recover with a short rest.

Run out of hit points, the PC is unconscious. Run out of wound points, the PC is dead.

The only limit on combat with regard to wounds is the number of times that PCs can magically heal (with spell or potion or whatever) wound points. Warlords restore hit points and rally allies, they do not restore wound points. That requires magical healing. REAL magical healing.

Maybe even rules that an unconscious PC is dying and takes a wound point each round that s/he isn't stabilized (by a good roll himself, or by an ally helping). This adds in an element of urgency to dying PCs that doesn't occur in 4E.

To me, such a system would be the better of 3E and 4E. PCs could still Second Wind, Warlords could still rally PCs, healing is still magical, if a group doesn't have a healer, they'd better get themselves some potions or even a healer henchmen to help out, etc. Throw in some rules for more ways to mitigate damage and the game is set. Damage resistance becomes a very favorable ability. Temporary hit points, not as much.

No player entitlement to self heal (which is an ease of game gamest concept, not a narrative one).


But, the entire terminology and history of the game has been of getting hit, taking damage, and getting healed. Not getting tired or unlucky. Only 4E has healing via Cheerleaders and it really is nonsensical to some of us (and I suspect to many players that moved over to PathFinder).

5E needs to return real damage of some sort to the game system.


And, the terminology could be different. Hit points are real wounds damage. Stun points (or some such) represent getting knocked out, but I don't really see the need.

 

[harlokin]

No player entitlement to self heal (which is an ease of game gamest concept, not a narrative one).


5E needs to return real damage of some sort to the game system.

.

Narrative does not begin and end with the DM, it is something that the DM and the Players contribute to. A limited ability for a Character to recover, when a Player chooses, grants them some small measure of control of the narrative for their character (like drinking a potion, but without the addictiveness, and no diarrhoea caused by excessive consumption).

If 5e has some form of 'realistic' damage mechanism, so be it. But it is not returning to anything that has gone before, because it has always been abstract.

 

[Naszir]

I think a vastly superior system of:

1) Hit points represent luck, courage, fatigue, etc.

2) Wound points represent real wounds.

No healing surges needed. PCs get one Second Wind per day (my preference as per Star Wars IIRC) or per encounter to rally with.

Every 10 hit points does 1 wound point, so a 25 hit point shot does 2 wound points which makes critical hits nastier, but 4 hit point shots do 0 wound points. PCs could get into barroom brawls where they take no actual wounds because the punches and kicks are not damaging enough, they just get knocked out. Minions often don't do wound points. But, BBEGs might do quite a few.

PCs have wound points = CON.

Wound points require magic or significant rest to heal.

Hit points recover with a short rest.

Run out of hit points, the PC is unconscious. Run out of wound points, the PC is dead.

The only limit on combat with regard to wounds is the number of times that PCs can magically heal (with spell or potion or whatever) wound points. Warlords restore hit points and rally allies, they do not restore wound points. That requires magical healing. REAL magical healing.

Maybe even rules that an unconscious PC is dying and takes a wound point each round that s/he isn't stabilized (by a good roll himself, or by an ally helping). This adds in an element of urgency to dying PCs that doesn't occur in 4E.

To me, such a system would be the better of 3E and 4E. PCs could still Second Wind, Warlords could still rally PCs, healing is still magical, if a group doesn't have a healer, they'd better get themselves some potions or even a healer henchmen to help out, etc. Throw in some rules for more ways to mitigate damage and the game is set. Damage resistance becomes a very favorable ability. Temporary hit points, not as much.

I knew we were at least a little on the same page here. Good ideas but I would probably implement something different.

But, the entire terminology and history of the game has been of getting hit, taking damage, and getting healed. Not getting tired or unlucky. Only 4E has healing via Cheerleaders and it really is nonsensical to some of us (and I suspect to many players that moved over to PathFinder).

This I don't get because I have seen it clearly stated in earlier versions of the game that hit points were not considered just a measure of a characters ability to withstand physical punishment.

 

[Izumi]

Err, since when is every combat in a fantasy world going to mimic a traditional attack from ancient japanese warrior? And even so you are telling me that no one ever was able to block the attack or get away from it? D&D is modeling heroic fantasy not real life. However, there is some basis for a second wind both in fantasy and real life. There is no basis for the fact that no one ever was able to get away from Satsuma Han Yakumura Nodachi Jigen Ryuu.

Since when is every combat in a fantasy world going to allow a second wind? And even so, It's not the point that the tactic was possibly avoidable, only that the historical record shows it was feared and effective on the field. It's strategy is all offense, allow them no defense. D&D came from a game that attempted to mimic real life medieval warfare and had rules for Japanese armies. You see a great need to rip out that background? Nobody told you this art was always unblockable, but we do know for a fact that bodies found had the back of their own swords embedded in their skulls. They had tried to block the famous strike of this art.

 

[Ratinyourwalls]

Yes it should. The game is better with them at least as an option.

 

[KarinsDad]

This I don't get because I have seen it clearly stated in earlier versions of the game that hit points were not considered just a measure of a characters ability to withstand physical punishment.

Ok, I'll explain this yet again for the 100th time.

No, earlier versions of hit points were not JUST the ability to withstand physical punishment. They included the ability to turn greater blows into lesser blows, a little bit of luck, etc.

But a PC that had 3 hit points left out of 100 was SERIOUSLY damaged. 3 more and that PC was dead for the first quarter century of rules. 3 more and that PC was dying in the 3E rules.

In 4E, a PC that has 3 hit points left out of 100 is SERIOUSLY inconvenienced. If he takes 3 more, he has a (typically) slimmer chance of dying than in 3E, especially if he gets attack while unconscious. 4E PCs can sometimes survive that. Any other PC can come over and stabilize him and even get him conscious without healing of any sort (and yes, we've heard the Heal skill argument that the PC is being healed, but come on). Warlords can shout him awake.

So no, the earlier versions weren't just a supernatural way to take physical punishment, but they did include a semblance of physical damage.

4E doesn't. It's a "protect the PCs at all costs" system, not a system where PCs can typically die if they get hit a lot (with the somewhat rare TPK situation or a few downed PCs while the rest of the PCs run situation). Another reason that PCs do not take real physical damage in 4E is that after the battle, a short rest and they can be totally healed up without any sort of magic at all. It's the equivalent of self regeneration or self heal.


Do you understand now???

Earlier versions included a feeling of actual damage. 4E doesn't unless the PC dies.

This is probably one of the reasons some people fled 4E and why the poll here has over half of the participants wanting to get rid of healing surges. Many people want some semblance of real physical damage added back to the system.

 

[harlokin]

Ok, I'll explain this yet again for the 100th time.
Many people want some semblance of real physical damage added back to the system.

Real damage has never been cured with magic.

 

[Hassassin]

Real damage has never been cured with magic.

What is this supposed to mean? Didn't Cure Light Wounds or Regenerate cure real damage?

 

[Herschel]

Phew, I must spread XP warning stopped me from posrepping you before I read this part:

grants them some small measure of control of the narrative for their character (like drinking a potion, but without the addictiveness, and no diarrhoea caused by excessive consumption).

How dare you deny me my right to role play my PC going through potion rehab and getting his magical medalion! You've not only stunted my creativity but just ruined the game economy as wizards can no longer do side work making them for money like in Whackmaster 17E!