D&D 5E Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[BryonD]

My guess is healing surges will be in the game as an optional healing rule, but not as part of the core default. People seem to either really like them or really hate them. They are going to have to find a way to make both these camps happy in 5e.

I suspect you are right.

And I agree with the Mad Arab (with apologies if I'm putting words in his mouth, that is not intended) in that making a system with that as an optional that also makes both of us happy (or EITHER of us!!) could be more difficult than it seems.

 

[BryonD]

but like I said before, I think we all have to be a bit willing to work with it.

To the contrary, neither of us have to be the least bit willing to work with anything.

If 5E isn't SUPERIOR to PF, I'll play PF.
I'd hope your view is the same for 4E or any other system you may find better.

I've personally never gotten all worried about the mechanics of an RPG.

Except when you get fired up arguing about them, right......
And maybe you will call me the pot calling the kettle black on that. But I'm not because I proudly proclaim that I take mechanics seriously. I want to play the best game possible. (And don't start with the "... with my friends..." line. I'm gonna play with my friends and have a blast. That is a given. Once we start discussing options rather than givens, I want to play the best game available.)

Everyone better learn to do that if they're actually going to be playing one overarching edition of D&D.

You have put your cart before your horse here. No one needs to learn anything. If there is one overarching edition of D&D that will be because a vast number of us choose to play it with our own preferences intact. If the game requires us to learn to change our preferences then it will simply fail to be an overarching edition.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

This whole thread is reminding me of King Arthur's encounter with the Black Knight.

"Look, your arm's off"

"No it isn't"

"Tis a flesh wound"

"I'M INVINCIBLE!"

"You're a Looney"

It reminds me of the "Stand by Me" scene where the kids get in the argument about who would win in a fight between Mighty Mouse or Superman. "It's superman. Mighty Mouse isn't even real!"

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I could see a mechanic for Healing Surges that are based on a dice roll similar to 4Ed's saving throws (with a Con bonus), once per combat after being dropped below 50% max HP.

This means it is:

1. Not triggered at a player's will
2. Random, so not dependable enough to plan on having happen
3. Potentially available every combat
4. Makes high Con PCs feel tougher than low Con, since they not only have more HP, they're more likely to have their Surge trigger

 

[Umbran]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Goodness knows, I understand people can be frustrating. But at no time is it okay to toss your hands in the air, give up, and dismiss them with blanket insults. If folks are so frustrating that the only way you have to deal is to publicly say bad things about them, it is time to walk away from the keyboard.

We expect everyone to treat each other, even the nameless masses, with respect, at all times. If you cannot do that, please go find something less frustrating to do until you patience has recharged.

Thanks, all.

 

[MoxieFu]

I could see a mechanic for Healing Surges that are based on a dice roll similar to 4Ed's saving throws (with a Con bonus), once per combat after being dropped below 50% max HP.

This means it is:

1. Not triggered at a player's will
2. Random, so not dependable enough to plan on having happen
3. Potentially available every combat
4. Makes high Con PCs feel tougher than low Con, since they not only have more HP, they're more likely to have their Surge trigger

This sounds very reasonable to me. I would prefer it to be a modular extension and not a part of the core game, but it sounds like a very workable compromise.

 

[BryonD]

You are both right, of course. Some of us like a little more verisimilitude than others, but it's kinda silly to argue over which unrealistic abstraction is more unrealistic.

You are DM.
I am playing Conan in your game. I am an X level barbarian with maybe some rogue or fighter depending on which book I most recently read.

I'm killing 20 men at a time. I'm avoiding and absorbing blows left and right that would instantly kill a regular mook.

I'm completely unrealistic.
Suddenly I decide that one group of guys has REALLY pissed me off. I look at you and say, I cast fireball and incinerate them.

What do you reply and why?

 

[BryonD]

I could see a mechanic for Healing Surges that are based on a dice roll similar to 4Ed's saving throws (with a Con bonus), once per combat after being dropped below 50% max HP.

This means it is:

1. Not triggered at a player's will
2. Random, so not dependable enough to plan on having happen
3. Potentially available every combat
4. Makes high Con PCs feel tougher than low Con, since they not only have more HP, they're more likely to have their Surge trigger

I could support this. It isn't really a surge though. It is just a presumption that every time you drop to below 50% then some portion will always be on the "karma" side and you always have a least a little of that back for the next fight.

Taking it out of player's hands is a big change.

Limiting access is a big change.

Keeping it from going back to full health is a big change.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It isn't really a surge though. It is just a presumption that every time you drop to below 50% then some portion will always be on the "karma" side and you always have a least a little of that back for the next fight.

Not "always"- you still have to make that roll, which keeps it from being a guarantee.

Which brings me to this: you can also alter it so that a race whose shtick it is to "be tough" might get a second roll (onl if the first one fails), a bonus to the roll, or more HP on a successful roll. Something like a Troll might get all 3.

 

[CleverNickName]

I'm trying to follow the different threads here, but I'm getting turned around. So far, everything from life force and vitality, to luck and force of will, have been rolled up and called "hit points." I think that we are starting to reach a bit too far in our attempt to redefine the stat, so let's go back to the basics.

And by "basics," of course I mean the Basic Rules Boxed Set. Oh yes, that's right...the B in BECM.

Hit Points:
[SBLOCK]Damage and Hit Points

In the game, when any creature is hit (either monster or character), damage is caused. There is a way of keeping track of damage, called hit points.

The number of hit points is the amount of damage that a creature can take before being killed. Hit points can be any number; the more hit points a creature has, the harder it is to kill. We often use an abbreviation for hit points: it is hp.

Your fighter starts with 8 hp (hit points) and still has all 8, since the goblin never hit you. He may have hit your armor or shield, but never got through your protection, so these attacks are still called "misses" -- they didn't actually damage your character.

- Player's Manual, pg. 3. Emphasis is in the original text.[/SBLOCK]
Constitution:
[SBLOCK]Constitution: Your health

Your fighter is healthy, and can fight a long time without tiring. This ability is measured by another Ability Score, called Constitution. Your Constitution is 16, well above average but not perfect.

Your Constitution affects your hit points. If you have a low score, you might only have 2 or 3 hit points. On the other hand, if you had an 18 Constitution, you might have as may as 10 hp, or more!

- Player's Manual, pg. 3. Emphasis is in the original text.[/SBLOCK]
Save Throws:
[SBLOCK]Poisoned?

This is a poisonous snake, which can be very dangerous. In the game, there is a way of finding out whether the poison hurt you or not. Roll the twenty-sided die again. If you rolled a 12 or higher, that means that you dodged before the snake could inject its poison (but you still take damage from the bite.) If you roll an 11 or less, your fighter takes 2 more points of damage from the poison (cross off the 7 hp and write 5).

You made a roll to see if you saved yourself from trouble; this roll is called a Saving Throw, and will be used later in many situations of the game.

- Player's Manual, pg. 4. Emphasis is in the original text.[/SBLOCK]
So there you have it. Even back in the BECM rules, the Player's Manual explained how your character's hit points, health, and even pure dumb luck all work together to keep your character alive.

Now, I'm not saying that it's wrong to re-imagine the fundamentals of the game. But please understand that when other gamers don't share a new point of view, it isn't because they don't understand it or because they are being obtuse. They are just sticking to the old rules, and there is nothing wrong with that either.