D&D 5E Should 5e have more classes (Poll and Discussion)?

Should D&D 5e have more classes?



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Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Here's a rough draft for the Occultist class I've mentioned a few times.

LevelProficiency BonusFeaturesCantrips Known1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
1st+2Spellcasting, Magic Line42
2nd+2Unearthly Path43
3rd+2Coven Magic, Binding Charms442
4th+2Ability Score Improvement443
5th+34432
6th+34433
7th+3Magic Line feature44331
8th+3Ability Score Improvement44332
9th+4443331
10th+4443332
11th+4Magic Line feature4433321
12th+4Ability Score Improvement4433321
13th+544333211
14th+5Improved Coven Magic44333211
15th+5Magic Line feature443332111
16th+5Ability Score Improvement443332111
17th+64433321111
18th+64433331111
19th+6Unearthly Powers4433332111
20th+6Occult Mage4433332211
Class Features
As an occultist, you gain the following class features.

Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d6 per occultist level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per occultist level after 1st

Proficiencies
Armor: None
Weapons: Simple weapons
Tools: Brewers' Tools or Alchemists' Supplies
Saving Throws: Intelligence, Charisma
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Persuasion, Deception, Sleight of Hand

Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

  • any simple weapon of your choice
  • (a) a component pouch or (b) a trinket or (c) an arcane focus
  • (a) a scholar's pack or (b) an explorer's pack
  • A grimoire
Spellcasting
As a practitioner of arcane magic, you have a grimoire containing spells that allow you to channel your dark spells.

Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the witch spell list. You learn additional witch cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Occultist table.

Grimoire
At 1st level, you have 2 occultist spells that have the ritual tag written in your grimoire. Your grimoire is where you write your ritual spells, and can cast those spells only while holding your grimoire. If you cast a ritual spell from your grimoire as its original casting time, you don't need to prepare that spell, and must be holding your grimoire at the time of the casting. You cannot prepare spells that have the ritual tag, and can only prepare spells that are not in your grimoire.

(Copying ritual spells into the book functions as copying a spell into a spellbook from the wizard sidebar.)

Preparing and Casting Spells
The Occultist table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your witch spells. To cast one of your witch spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
You prepare the list of occultist spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the occultist spell list. When you do so, choose an amount of occultist spells equal to your Intelligence modifier + your witch level. These spells must be of a level that you have spell slots.
For example, if you’re a 3rd-level witch, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spell list. If you prepare the 1st-level spell hex, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.

You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of occultist spells requires time spent doing dark rites using your spellcasting focus and grimoire: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your occultist spells: your understanding of the dark threads of magic allow you to wield these spells with superior skill. You use your Intelligence whenever a occultist spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for an occultist spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

Ritual Casting
You can cast a occultist spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and is written in your grimoire.

Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus or any of the following items as a spellcasting focus for your witch spells; lantern, crystal ball, candle, needle, a jar, a bottle, fragment of obsidian, or a skull.

Occultist Spell List
Here's the list of spells you consult when you learn an occultist spell. The list is organized by spell level, not character level.

These spells are from the Player's Handbook and Xanathar's Guide to Everything

Cantrips (0 Level)
acid splash
chill touch
dancing lights
friends
infestation
light
mage hand
mending
message
minor illusion
poison spray
primal savagery
thorn whip
toll the dead
witchcraft
(see end of class description)

1st Level
armor of agathys
cause fear
charm person
command
comprehend languages
cure wounds
detect magic
disguise self
dissonant whispers
faerie fire
false life
feather fall
hellish rebuke
hex
identify
inflict wounds
jump
longstrider
mage armor
protection from evil and good
ray of sickness
silent image
sleep
speak with animals
tasha's hideous laughter
unseen servant
witch bolt


2nd Level
alter self
animal messenger
blindness/deafness
blur
cloud of daggers
continual flame
crown of madness
darkness
darkvision
detect thoughts
earthbind
enhance ability
enthrall
heat metal
hold person
invisibility
levitate
locate object
magic mouth
melf's acid arrow
misty step
phantasmal force
ray of enfeeblement
rope trick
scorching ray
see invisibility
shadow blade
skywrite
spider climb
suggestion
web


3rd Level
bestow curse
blink
clairvoyance
counterspell
dispell magic
fear
feign death
fly
glyph of warding
haste
hypnotic pattern
leomund's tiny hut
life transference
magic circle
major image
nondetection
phantom steed
remove curse
sending
slow
speak with dead
spirit guardians
stinking cloud
summon lesser demons
tongues
vampiric touch


4th Level
arcane eye
banishment
blight
charm monster
compulsion
confusion
conjure woodland beings
divination
evard's black tentacles
giant insect
greater invisibility
hallucinatory terrain
leomund's secret chest
locate creature
mordenkainen's faithful hound
mordenkainen's private sanctum
phantasmal killer
polymorph
shadow of moil
sickening radiance
summon greater demon
vitriolic sphere


5th Level
animate objects
antilife shell
awaken
cloudkill
contact other plane
contagion
dominate person
dream
enervation
far step
geas
hold monster
infernal calling
insect plague
legend lore
mislead
modify memory
negative energy flood
planar binding
rary's telepathic bond
scrying
seeming
teleportation circle


6th Level
circle of death
conjure fey
create homunculus
disintegrate
eyebite
flesh to stone
harm
magic jar
mass suggestion
mental prison
otto's irresistible dance
programmed illusion
soul cage
true seeing
wall of thorns


7th Level
etherealness
finger of death
mirage arcane
mordenkainen's magnificent mansion
plane shift
project image
sequester
simulacrum
symbol


8th Level
abi-dalzim's horrid wilting
antimagic field
antipathy/sympathy
clone
demiplane
dominate monster
feeblemind
glibness
illusory dragon
maddening darkness
maze
mind blank
power word stun


9th Level
foresight
gate
imprisonment
mass polymorph
power word kill
psychic scream
true polymorph
weird
wish


Magic Line
At 1st level, you choose your favored source of magic. You can focus on one specific archetype of magic, allowing you to gain more power in that specific field of magic. Choose from one of the ways to focus your magic: Blood Line, Bone Magic, Familiar Magic, Morph Magic, Earth Magic, Light Magic, Dark Magic, and Mixture Magic, all detailed at the end of the class description.

Your choice grants you features at 1st level, and again at 7th, 11th, and 15th level.

Unearthly Path
At level 2, you choose the type of magic that fuels your spells and other occult abilities, ranging from dark aberrant powers to light blessing magic. Pick one of the following paths: Black Path, Grey Path, or White Path. Those who practice dark magic typically lean towards evil arts and tempted by darker beings, practitioners of grey magic normally are neutral and empower themselves, while studiers white magic support their allies and are most often good.

When you choose your Unearthly Path, you gain an ability listed below, corresponding to the path you choose.

Dark Malediction
You gain resistance to necrotic damage, as well as the ability to put a malignant curse on another creature. As a bonus action, curse one enemy you can see within 60 feet of you. They remain cursed for 1 minute or until they die. While cursed this way, they gain the following detrimental effects:

  • They gain one exhaustion.
  • They take extra damage from your spells and attacks equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one damage).
  • They have disadvantage on the first attack roll they make on each of their turns.
  • They cannot make reactions.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.

Path Spells
Black Path Spells

OCCULTIST LEVELSPELLS
1sthex
3rdblindness/deafness
5thbestow curse
7thcompulsion
9thdream
Pallid Aura
You gain resistance to force damage, as well as the ability to shield and empower yourself from others' harmful effects. As a bonus action, you can surround yourself in a pale aura of protecting energy. This ward lasts for 1 minute or until you drop to 0 hit points, and grants you the following effects:

  • You gain an amount of temporary hit points equal to your occultist level + your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1 hit point).
  • When you make a saving throw against an effect that would damage you, you may use your reaction to make the saving throw at advantage.
  • You have advantage on ability checks made on your turn.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a short or long rest.

Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.

Path Spells
Grey Path Spells

Ivory Benison
You gain resistance to radiant damage, as well as the ability to bestow a beneficial charm upon an ally or yourself. As a bonus action, choose one willing creature within 60 feet of you (including yourself) to give this blessing to. This blessing lasts for 1 minute or until the blessed creature drops to 0 hit points, granting them the following benefits:

  • Attack rolls made to attack that creature are made at disadvantage.
  • They regain an amount of hit points at the start of each of their turns equal to your proficiency bonus.
  • They have advantage on the first attack roll they make on each of their turn.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a short or long rest.

Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.

Path Spells
White Path Spells

OCCULTIST LEVELSPELLS
1stbless
3rdaid
5thbeacon of hope
7thdeath ward
9thcircle of power
Binding Charms
Starting at 3rd level, you gain access to a set of charms that you can set on other creatures or yourself to cause magical effects. Charms can be used for different purposes, and are all unique. Different charms accomplish different things, as specified in their description.

When you gain this feature, choose one charm of any color, as well as another charm of the same color as the Unearthly Path you chose at level one. When you get to level 5, you gain one more charm of the color associated with your Unearthly Magic. At level 9, you can choose another charm of any color to know. At 13th level, you gain another charm of the color Path you have chosen, and another at level 17 of any color. Black charms are called malisons, grey charms are called wards, and white charms are called favors. The list of charms is in the end of the occultist class section (I need help developing them).

Coven Rite
Beginning at level 3, you are a master of sharing spellcasting with others. At the end of a short or long rest, you may perform a ritual with other spellcasters, the ritual taking at least 10 minutes of the rest per spellcaster. You may give another willing caster your spell slots, or they may give you spell slots. They must expend a spell slot that they have to give you the spell slot, and you must do the same to give another caster a spell slot. The spell slot they gain must be of a level they could already cost, and they gain the slot equal to the level expended. The spell slot that they receive lasts until they use it or finish a long rest.

While you are performing this ritual, you gain an amount of Coven Points equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). When performing a ritual, you may expend Coven Points to give yourself or another spellcaster that is doing the ritual with you extra spell slots equal to the amount of Coven Points you expend, as long as they have spell slots of the level you give them. You regain all Coven Points at the end of a long rest.

At level 14, you may give a spell slot of 5th level or lower to a creature that has the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature of a level spell slot they have while using this feature, expending no spell slot to do so. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of your next long rest.


Ability Score Improvement

When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.

New Spells
Witchcraft
evocation cantrip

As a practitioner of witch magic and dark spells, you are adept at focusing your magical powers to shape the environment around you. As an action while holding a spellcasting focus, you can cause one of the following magical effects of your choice to immediately happen:

  • You create an instantaneous, harmless eerie effect on a creature you can see within 10 feet, strong enough to be noticeable, but not strong enough to cause any damage or condition. This effect could be a shiver down their back, a slight headache, a piercing pain in a part of their body of your choice, a slight tingling sensation, or a slight increase or decrease in temperature.
  • You instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire within 10 feet of you.
  • You instantly soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot within 10 feet of you.
  • You make a symbol, up to 10 words of text, or simple drawing appear on an object or surface within 10 feet of you for the next hour or until you dismiss it at any point (no action required).
  • You open or close an unlocked door, window, or shutter within 10 feet of you.
  • You alter the appearance of your eyes, hair, or one piece of clothing on you for the next hour or until you dismiss this change at any point (no action required).
Subclasses

Light Line

Occultists who practice light magic absorb and store light that they experience in their everyday lives, and use the energy to fuel their arcane spells. Though they are not born with this power, and do not bargain or barter for this power with extaplanar entities, they do learn to develop it. Using unearthly knowledge that they discover in their occult practices, they form a symbiotic relationship with radiation, harnessing it for their magic, and releasing it in bursts of bright power. Though those who use Light Magic most often are of the White Path, it is not uncommon to find practitioners of the Grey Path, or even more rarely the Black Path can use this line of magic.

Those of the White Path who practice the Light Line of magic typically focus on blessing others while blasting their enemies with bright light, similar to the sun's light. Those of the Grey Path who use the Light Line often cause themselves to glow as they surround themselves with wards, emitting dim light wherever they go. Black Path practitioners who use this line focus their absorbed energy into harmful radiation, cursing those who they despise and incinerating them with unearthly light. No matter their path, these occultists evoke powerful radiant energy which they use to blind, harm, and slay those they unleash their powers on.

Line Spells
You gain line spells a the occultist levels listed.

Light Line Spells

Bright Mage
At level 1, you can surround yourself in an aura of bright, blinding light and blast others with this power. You know and can cast the sacred flame, and it counts as an occultist spell for you. As an action, you can choose to start shedding bright light in a 30 foot radius around you, and dim light an additional 30 feet. When you use this action, you can focus this light on any number of creatures in the range of the bright light of your choice, forcing them to make a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. On a failed save, they take radiant damage equal to 2d6 + your Intelligence modifier and become blinded, or half as much on a successful save and not become blinded. A blinded creature remains blinded for one minute, and can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on a success. This light remains until you dismiss it as an action or you become unconscious.

At level 7, the damage dice for this feature increases to 3d6, 4d6 at level 11, and 5d6 at 15th level.

Once you use this feature, you may not do so again until you finish a long rest. In order to use this ability, you must be within direct contact of bright light produced in a way other than this feature or your spells sometime during the day for at least one minute.

One with Light
Starting at 7th level, you are completely suffused with bright energy, giving you immunity to radiant damage. Additionally, when you cast a spell that deals radiant damage, instead of rolling for damage, you can instead deal the most damage possible with that spell. Once you use this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Draining Radiance
When you gain this feature at level 11, your power over radiance allows you to better focus your light to harm others. Once on each of your turns, when you deal radiant damage to a creature with a spell of 1st-level or higher, you can force them to take one exhaustion. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of a long rest.

Light Energy
At 15th level, when you are in bright light, you can harm others with beams of light. While completely in bright light of any source, you can channel the energy you absorb into a beam of light. As a bonus action, make a ranged spell attack using your spell attack bonus to hit, choosing any creature or object within 60 feet of you to shoot a beam of bright light at. On a hit, you deal radiant damage equal to 2d10 + your occultist level.

Earth Line
The occultists who draw their energy from the earth fuel their power with power of nature. However, they are not like druids, shamans, and rangers, who receive their magic from nature spirits, deities, and primal powers. Instead, occultists who practice the ways of earth focus their powers from the innate magical energies of the earth and processes of life. They are more tamed and refined than druids, not embodying nature, and instead channeling it. All shades of occult paths can draw on the powers of nature.

Typically, an occultist who practices black magic typically steals their powers from nature, acting as magical leeches who use their stolen magic for selfish or dark purposes. A grey path occultist who uses the Earth Line for their magic typically draws their energy from nature's inherent magic, but focus these powers for defensive magic, protecting them and their allies with the powers of nature. Occultists of white magic use the energy that they borrow to empower other beings who protect nature, typically being friendly towards fey and woodland protectors, such as druids, treants, and wardens.

Line Spells
You gain line spells a the occultist levels listed.

Earth Line Spells
Primal Power
At level 1, your spellcasting power feeds off of nature magic. You gain one druid cantrip of your choice. This cantrip becomes an occultist spell for you, and uses your Intelligence as your spellcasting ability. You also gain proficiency in Nature and Animal Handling and double your proficiency bonus when making an ability check with those skills.

Additionally, once on each of your turns, when you cast a spell that incapacitates a creature in any way, they have disadvantage on their saving throw against a spell.

Warden of Nature
When you gain this feature at 7th level, you are suffused by earthly magic that powers your primal spells. When you cast an occultist spell using a spell slot of 1st-level or higher that deals poison, fire, lightning, cold, or thunder damage, you may roll an extra damage dice for the spell and add it to the total damage. Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until the start of your next turn.

At level 15, this increased damage dice increases to 2 extra damage dice, and 3 extra at 19th level.

Magic of the Wilds
Beginning at level 11, you gain the ability to spread your magic. As a reaction, when a creature fails their saving throw against a spell you cast targeting them on this turn, you may choose another creature within 30 feet of the first creature must make the same spell, becoming effected by it on a failed save. If the spell requires concentration, you may maintain concentration on both effects at the same time.

Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a long rest.

Earth's Strength
Starting at 15th level, you are empowered by the earth. While you are on the ground, you have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from all attacks not made with magical metallic weapons and have advantage on Strength checks.

Umbra Line
An occultist who practices gloaming magic of the Umbra Line draws their magic from shadows and pure darkness. Though these occultists often are followers of the Black Path of magic, they are not restricted to that unearthly way. Many of these occultists have a sort of connection with the Shadowfell, not a pact or changed bloodline, but often more of a bond with it. Shadows are present in the lack of light, so any magical being or individual that uses darkness could become bound with the plane of shadows. Umbran occultists use shadows to their benefit, channeling the dark magic of them to fuel their magic.

Occultists who follow the Line of Umbra as well as the White Path of magic are relatively rare, but use their powers of sculpting darkness to aid themselves and their allies and protect them from the attacks of those who cannot see in their darkness. A Grey Path occultist of this line can focus their shadow powers to shield themselves from attacks, and hide them while they use spells on others. An occultist who follows the Black Path and uses the Umbra Line is usually a dark soul, one who haunts others, blinding them and cursing them with gloomy magic.

Line Spells
You gain line spells a the occultist levels listed.

Umbra Line Spells

Shadow Spells
At 1st level, you are siphon your magic from arcane darkness and obscuring shadows. Choose one necromancy cantrip from any spell list, which you know and can cast as an occultist spell, not counting against the maximum amount of cantrips that you can know. You also gain darkvision of 120 feet, and can see through magical darkness using this darkvision. As an action, you can wreath yourself in a dark aura, which extends in every direction (but not through total cover) 30 feet. In areas of dim light, it becomes darkness, areas of bright light become dim light, and areas of darkness become magical darkness. This aura lasts for a minute or until you're knocked unconscious. When you first use this feature, each creature of your choice within range make a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC or take necrotic damage equal to 2d6 + your Intelligence modifier, or half as much on a successful save.

At level 7, the damage dice for this feature increases to 3d6, 4d6 at level 11, and 5d6 at 15th level.

Once you use this feature, you may not do so again until you finish a long rest. In order to use this ability, you must be within direct contact of darkness produced in a way other than this feature or your spells sometime during the day for at least one minute.

Dark One
Beginning at level 7, you gain immunity to necrotic damage. Additionally, when you cast a spell that deals necrotic damage, instead of rolling for damage, you can instead deal the most damage possible with that spell. Once you use this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Blinding Gloom
When you gain this feature at 11th level, you are better at using your dark powers to blind others. As a reaction, when you deal necrotic damage to a creature or they fail a saving throw against a spell you cast, they become blinded until the end of your next turn.

The Power of Midnight
At 15th level, when you are in darkness, you can harm others with bursts of darkness. While completely in darkness, you may use a bonus action to make a ranged spell attack, dealing necrotic damage equal to 2d10 + your occultist level on a hit. Your bonus to hit for this is your spell attack modifier.

Okay, that's the class so far. I would like feedback if you have any.
 
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Sort of like technology based superhero in comic books who have access and understand technology before it becomes common or a commodity.
I don't see how this could work with mundane renaissance-level tech. Once someone knows how to do it, it can be bought with money and it probably relatively easy to use.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The edge of the fighter is the fighter actually has lore and knowledge skills.

It becomes a slight issue of breadth versus depth then. For me, the idea of a loremaster is someone who has mastered lore of some kind, but YMMV.

Sure the Rogue can double your proficiency but the rogue itself doesn't offer the skills. You must use the background.

That's the flaw of having every application on mental power in your system be a spell.

This baffles me why so many want "low magic" settings but don't want to add nonmagical classes.
(emphasis mine)

MY system???

I don't want more classes period. I want a fair number of current subclasses where appropriate to have spell-like powers and features removed.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
No class in D&D 5e has a name that is 2 separate words. It's all just one title, so that's why I was initially leaning towards Magus and Gish.

Champion Fighter 100% Warrior 0% Warmage

Eldritch Knight Fighter 80% Warrior 20% Warmage

Duskblade 66% Warrior 33% Warmage

Gish 50% Warrior 50% Warmage

Swordmage 33% Warrior 66 Warmage

Bladesinger Wizard 20% Warrior 80% Warmage

Evocation Wizard 0% Warrior 100 Warmage

Bold for new classes
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Champion Fighter 100% Warrior 0% Warmage

Eldritch Knight Fighter 80% Warrior 20% Warmage

Duskblade 66% Warrior 33% Warmage

Gish 50% Warrior 50% Warmage

Swordmage 33% Warrior 66 Warmage

Bladesinger Wizard 20% Warrior 80% Warmage

Evocation Wizard 0% Warrior 100 Warmage

Bold for new classes
Do the Duskblade and Swordmage have to be their own classes? I could just make a subclass for the Gish for each of them, one getting more spellcasting, and the other getting more fighting power.
 


Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Hilarious for you to say that!
Not really. I'm open to one arcane gish class, but I'm not aware of any distinctions between a Duskblade and a Swordmage. Like I've said multiple times, I want more classes, but don't want to go overboard. If you have to make 3 different arcane classes for a gish, that could cause class bloat. That's like making an Opera singer class, as well as a Jazz player class, as distinct classes from the Bard.
 

Not really. I'm open to one arcane gish class, but I'm not aware of any distinctions between a Duskblade and a Swordmage. Like I've said multiple times, I want more classes, but don't want to go overboard. If you have to make 3 different arcane classes for a gish, that could cause class bloat. That's like making an Opera singer class, as well as a Jazz player class, as distinct classes from the Bard.
I fully agree. And know you know I feel about most of your class ideas. ;)

But ultimately in a world where paladins exist as a separate class, one battlemage class is not an utterly terrible idea. However, that would definitely require deleting Eldritch Knight, because this would pretty much be the Eldritch Knight the except as a full class. It is also thematically super similar to the Hexblade, though Hexblade is only an awkward attempt to patch the blade pact.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I don't see how this could work with mundane renaissance-level tech. Once someone knows how to do it, it can be bought with money and it probably relatively easy to use.

Depends.
Many forms of technology can only be operated by specially trained individuals. If the loremaster is needed for their ability to safely operate new tech or reliably recall info, that explains why they are pare of the party.


becomes a slight issue of breadth versus depth then. For me, the idea of a loremaster is someone who has mastered lore of some kind, but YMMV

My point is that the rogue gets zero lore skills. So Doubling zero is still zero.

mphasis mine)

MY system???

I don't want more classes period. I want a fair number of current subclasses where appropriate to have spell-like powers and features removed

The "you" in question is the combination of the 5e designers who put all higher levels of acedemia as spellcasting and those who prefer that narrative.

No you as in you the poster.
 

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