D&D 5E Should 5e have save or die?

[avin]

I would accept save-or-die effects to be turned into multiple-saves-or-die.

Thus a disintegration or petrification spell that doesn't kill you if you fail one save, but only if you fail X saves (in a row or not). I think it would be cool if this would be described as the petrification taking effect first on the arm, then spread slowly as the PC tries to resist.

I think this issue, Save or Die or not, it's not hard to implement in a modular game.

Option Rule 1 could be save or die for Petrification.

Option Rule Rule 2 could be save or be petrified for X rounds. If you fail a second save at the end of that time, or aren't helped by another spell/potion/scroll, you die.

Options.

 

[keterys]

For example, you could have a simple 'all or nothing' rule for certain attacks. Say a medusa has a 10d8 'all or nothing' petrifying gaze. Roll 'to hit' (in effect to try to catch the eye of a viable target). Roll damage. If that damage puts you below 0hp, it's statue time. If not, it has no effect.

Yep, that's a fun design space. In Buffy, for example, when you stake a vampire in the heart you compare your potential damage (pretty huge) to its remaining health. If greater than, you staked it, it dies. If not, you hit it somewhere else and it takes normal "not in the heart" damage.

So you can apply the same thing to disintegrate rays, medusa gaze, mind flayer gnawing on a skull, or whatever.

Which fits the genre fine, too. A back a forth struggle that ends with the cool "And you die" - not starts right off the bat with it, ending the combat before anything interesting happens. Unless you're a nobody, in which case, bam, right off the bat.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think this issue, Save or Die or not, it's not hard to implement in a modular game.

Option Rule 1 could be save or die for Petrification.

Option Rule Rule 2 could be save or be petrified for X rounds. If you fail a second save at the end of that time, or aren't helped by another spell/potion/scroll, you die.

Options.

Yes, I was too wondering if the game could work with different options in this case.

I had in mind something involving letting the DM choosing how many saves are granted before death.

The problem is that by allowing these options, then the spell(s) don't have a unique level for balancing them against other spells, so that also a level adjustment would be needed.

Maybe, if the designers get such level adjustment right... it could work like this:

- redefine previously save-or-die spells as to now allowing e.g. N saves instead of 1 before killing the character
- introducing a metamagic feat (or whatever works in the edition) which decreases the number of saves before death by 1 in exhange for +L spell level increase, applicable multiple times
- tell the DM that she can either:

(1) disallow such feat, i.e. all those spells are save-in-N-attempts-or-die
(2) allow such feat, i.e. each player chooses
(3) make such feat applied by default to all relevant spells, i.e. all are save-or-die but LxN level higher

...but it would be essential to get those N and L number rights

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Actually, one could distinguish things - falling from 500 ft? You die. There is nothing you could conceivable do barring magical items and spells for that purpose to save yourself. Nothing.

Wrong. A friend of my dad's was a paratrooper in WW2. His chute failed and he plummeted thousands of feet and landed flat of his back in a farmer's field. He got up and walked several miles to the nearest unit. His back was broken and he spent several months recuperating, but he DID walk away. You can say he got extremely lucky, but that's the point. Heroes get lucky all the time.

EdiT: He also had the coolest name EVER: Buck Austin.

 

[Hassassin]

Wrong. A friend of my dad's was a paratrooper in WW2. His chute failed and he plummeted thousands of feet and landed flat of his back in a farmer's field. He got up and walked several miles to the nearest unit. His back was broken and he spent several months recuperating, but he DID walk away. You can say he got extremely lucky, but that's the point. Heroes get lucky all the time.

EdiT: He also had the coolest name EVER: Buck Austin.

Now suppose the whole party falls from thousands of feet?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Now suppose the whole party falls from thousands of feet?

They most likely all die. But there should be some small chance of survival. Say, a nat 20 on a save.

 

[mmadsen]

It could be worse. You could invent, say... hero points and allow people to reroll save or die rolls.

Basically, you now have hit points and hero points. And they both do the same thing!

Or you could redefine hit points to be hero points.

Why does he get a save in the first place? Is it really "more" realistic to have a Fighter fall from 500 ft height and have a 35 % chance of survival (or more)?

I don't know where the 35-percent figure came from, but falling a great distance is not certain death -- and in a game like D&D, rounding a one-percent chance of survival up to 1-in-20 seems reasonable.

 

[BryonD]

Here we definitely agree. I think random accidents and tragedies like that have no place in game rules. They may have a place in the game world, but if you use them, because you want them to be part of your story.

I presume you meant "disagree". Cause we do...

 

[unan oranis]

The fair thing would be for the "save-or-die" mechanic to have a taste of it's own medicine.

On a roll of 9 or lower, the designers leave it out.


I rolled... a five! I'm a fan of save-or-die! Nooo! I've played that rule for twenty years! Countless hours down the crapper!

 

[ferratus]

That's the best idea I've heard in my life.

Anyone who is defending save or die has spent probably as much time defending save or die as I spend on a character in an ongoing campaign. So the personal investment is the same. Since the medusa is the most frequent example for save or die on this thread, it can be a saving throw vs. petrification. If they fail the roll, they can never defend save or die ever again.

You can use for favourite class and your favorite old school edition, and the level you roll on will be the level of your enworld avatar. Enworld also handily comes with a dice roller.

I know that you enjoy your style of play, just like I enjoy playing my character, but sometimes abrupt and tragic things happen in the real world. If you fail, all you'd have to do is roll up a new playstyle. Sure your fun will be spoiled momentarily, just like my fun is spoiled by having my PC die by an arbitrary bit of bad luck, but don't get so hung up on it. You shouldn't need to be coddled or be afraid of losing one rules mechanic.

(I'm genuinely curious to see who has the stones).