Should a DM assume your character does something?

[alsih2o]

Re: Does anybody actually read?

Fastlearner (but Slowreader),

before you take a condescending tone with me. He states in that message that they were SHOUTING at each other. Creating rules to prevent things like this from happening IS the adult thing to do.

responsible parent (I pray you have no children) would enforce a set of guidelines that
Didn't mommy and daddy teach you this?

tburdett, i try very hard to be "up" in all my posts, and if you cjeck them you will see overall a fondness for humor over anything, but for a guy pushing for maturity you are being oversensitive, harsh and rather infantile.

can't YOU show a little respect?

you in fact brought up the arguing, not the shouting...

 

[tburdett]

Fair enough.

Fair enough.

 

[Tsyr]

Re: Does anybody actually read?

We game in my home and my children are present when this takes place. Any responsible parent would enforce a set of guidelines that did NOT allow for players to take hostile acts against either the GM or another player.

No children are within a mile of where we game, so that's not a factor we need to bring into this discussion.

Define hostile acts, though. We don't fight, in a physical sense. I don't even throw dice at him. For that matter, I didn't even resort to profanity, that I can recall. (He did, on the other hand) We raise our voices a bit. When people get upset over something, it tends to happen.

If you are not happy with the decisions that the GM is making, leave the table.

Sure, I could do that. But why should I leave the game (And probably have my character dead if I came back later) that I've been playing for the better part of a year because the DM was in a bad mood or something one night? Every one of us sitting around that table have been friends since highschool. We get mad at each other outside of the game sometimes, why should in game be any different? As you are so fond of pointing out, it's a game. A social activity. Not a funeral or something.

Shouting at another person over a GAME is never mature or appropriate behavior.

Never said it was. Did you miss the part where I said regretted it turning into that?

Ever hear the old expression, "It takes two to tango"? We were both shouting. How is it so evil and sinful for a player to do that, judging by the scathing tone of your posts towards me and those who have defended me, but just peachy for a GM to do that, judging by the fact you don't seem to have anything to say about that particular fact?

For that matter, did you miss this little line in my original post?

We were both wrong to let it degrade into shouting, I know, I don't need that pointed out...

 

[Kaemris Tencoin]

Well, when I DM I don't assume that players do things. I don't assume they're following people up a flight of stairs (but I probably would have asked, in the situation you describe), I don't assume they're memorizing spells, I don't assume they're using the Dodge feat. If they claim to have bought a 10' pole, it better be written down on the sheet!

I apologize if this has already been said, but it sounds like the DM got excited about getting to spring his trap on blithe and unsuspecting PCs, and in that excitement forgot to ask everyone what they were doing. I have been guilty of that more than once...such things happen. I hope you guys can work it out and keep the game on track. Good luck!

 

[TiQuinn]

As a DM, if I know that there's a trap coming up, I don't assume anything about a player's actions. I want them to find or set off the trap based on their own decisions. I'll usually take the time to ask specifically what people are doing when I know that something is coming up (a trap, an encounter, etc.) that will be substantially influenced by how the character acts.

I think the DM got overzealous and wanted everyone to fall into this particular trap. The wine-drinking problem was a bit much, too.

As for arguing in a game when a DM makes a bad call, I completely sympathize. You expect a DM to be fair, and you expect to have a good time. When that is ruined by a bad call, it's tough to just grin and bear it.

 

[Fast Learner]

Re: Does anybody actually read?

Please go back and read the very first message in this thread before you take a condescending tone with me. He states in that message that they were SHOUTING at each other. Creating rules to prevent things like this from happening IS the adult thing to do.

We game in my home and my children are present when this takes place. Any responsible parent would enforce a set of guidelines that did NOT allow for players to take hostile acts against either the GM or another player.

We have never had shouting or physical violence at one of our game sessions. Why is it wrong or unfortunate to create a guideline to reinforce in the players minds that this type of behavior will not be tolerated?

Parents should indeed set and enforce guidelines for their children; I know I do.

If you re-read your post, though, you may notice that you implied that DM's should serve this parental role to the players. To me, anyway, it is unfortunate that (unless you in fact are the parent of the players) any DM would feel that such an attitude is appropriate or acceptable. Taking such an attitude with the players is, strictly in my opinion, the very definition of condescending.

You are in a specific circumstance: you are gaming in front of your children. As such a rule that no one is allowed to argue in front of them is your perogative. Please understand that this is not the situation most gamers are in, yet you expressed outrage that we don't act the way you do. I, in turn, expressed that in my group we act like adults and don't place behavior rules on each other.

Do you see why your situation doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of us?

 

[Agamon]

As a DM, I never assume one person speaks for the group. If one player says, "Let's go upstairs," then I say, "So, is everyone else following him upstairs?"

A good DM does this, IMO. It sure makes for less confromtations and allows everyone to have a say on group actions.

 

[Darkness]

The GM was clearly in the wrong.

Assuming that a character does something just because another character is doing it is generally a bad idea. After all, if the other player had said, "I sit down in a corner, pour oil over myself and set it on fire. Goodbye, o you cruel world!" rather than "I go up the stairs.", would he have also assumed that your character acted in a like manner?

 

[alsih2o]

in response to the question rather than the situation, yes, i think the d.m. should assume certain actions.

when you take off your boots to use spiderclimb i do not think you should be punished for not listing where and when you stow them....i assume if you have a pack they are stowed.

same for many other minor actions, eating, relieving ones self("you get a -4 on all attacks, as you haven't taken time to pee today"), taking the saddle off the horse...yada yada.

again, before anyone spouts flame!!! i am not defending the action in the original post, but replying to the question "should a dm assume your character does something?"

 

[Al]

Ideally, the DM should ask the players. Even more ideally, the players should announce their intentions.

But the problem comes when the DM assumes something that the PCs do, without asking or being told. In this situation, the question must be asked: would I expect the characters to do this without the players announcing it?

As has been repeatedly cited, most characters do things without the players announcing it. They stop for lunch on long trips and this is usually unannounced. They relieve themselves- this is nearly always unannounced. They also perform many more mechanically important tasks, such as praying for spells or preparing them. Most players just sit down and tick off spells for that day without announcing it specifically.

In this situation, I judge that the DM was correct in his ruling. I can't be sure, but it seems that the party was just trying to get out of the trap. If there was no trap and the game has run smoothly, then it would have been very strange for the DM to have challenged the player who did walk up solo in the next encounter. The logical extreme is the player who announces that he walks up the stairs and then the DM hits him with a trap on the fifth stair- to which he replies that he didn't step on the fifth stair. For the most part, the DM should determine what is 'normal' behaviour for the party: in this case following the leader, and unless the party announce that they are doing something specifically out of the ordinary, assuming they do what they would normally do is probably a fair call.