Should an exalted sorcerer be allowed to heal?

[ForceUser]

I'm one of the players in the group in question. And my PC (a goblin rogue) just got turned to stone by a cockatrice ;-)

I will point out a couple of reasons that I would be reticent to play a cleric in ForceUser's game:

1) all clerics in his game have to have Grace... ie, they're effectively held to the standards of a Paladin, from what I can tell.

Clerics of the Celestine, Garl Glittergold, or the Silver Flame, yes. Goblin clerics of Maglubiyet, no. A PC goblin cleric would be aligned to Chaos.

1) He has very strong ideas about the nature of Grace, and what's involved in being good, and I don't agree with all of them. I would expect conflict with the DM because of this, and I don't want this.

My ideas are based upon the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Judeo-Christian perspective upon which I have based the major human religion in the Euro-centric area of the campaign world which the PCs inhabit. In short, the human faith mimics the medieval Catholic Church, both in structure and influence. Other areas of the world correspond to other real-world cultures, and as such, other real-world religions. I would love to run another Buddhist/Hindu campaign!

3) I prefer to play the antihero, rather than the hero. For me, it's more interesting to play Han Solo , who has to think about whether he'll do the right thing, than Luke Skywalker, for whom it comes naturally.

And you're doing a great job!

4) As ForceUser noted, I'm an Atheist. My D&D worldview tends to think of Gods as really big spirits, or people who achieved great power, rather than idealized, perfect beings who don't make mistakes. I view gods more in the Greek/Hindu vein (IE, you worship them for favor and power) rather than in the Judeo-Christian vein (you worship them out of devotion). Some of this is influenced by real life conversations; I travel a lot, and I spent an afternoon outside the Kali temple in Kathmandu once asking the worshippers why they worshipped Kali. "For Power", was the general response. In a polytheistic society, where the gods are not uniform in their opinion or will, I would expect this to be normal.

I bet we could have a lot of fun in an Asian campaign!

I would point out one thing -- all of us are having tons of fun. ForceUser is a great DM, and I don't think any of us mind terribly that we are 'levelling in reverse'. Ken

Thanks man.

 

[Jubilee]

Druids & Bards also have healing capabilities. Is there any particular reason those aren't viable alternatives to the limits placed on Clerics?

/ali

 

[ForceUser]

Druids & Bards also have healing capabilities. Is there any particular reason those aren't viable alternatives to the limits placed on Clerics?

/ali

It's interesting to me that you consider the necessity of Grace to be a limit. I don't see it as such--it is to me the logical result of having a deep spiritual connection to the divine. It is only a limit for those players that want to play divine spellcasters without role-playing religion or spirituality. Persons unwilling to role-play spirituality need not apply for the position of divine spellcaster IMC. I feel strongly about this. You don't have to be religious IRL, but you have to want to portray a spiritual character. To me, that does not seem an unreasonable request.

There's a bard in the party, but she chose not to take healing spells. Druids aren't viable only because of location--the party's in an area in which druids are not found natively (IMC, races & classes are often regional), so a druid's player would need a really good reason for why he'd be in a foreign land in an urban setting.

 

[DM_Matt]

Deleted to remove inappropriate content regarding alignment and the midieval catholic church.

 

[Herobizkit]

Following up on Kelleris's really cool concept on giving healing abilities to non-Clerics...

Assume the Celestial in Kelleris's example is, in fact, a Paladin. Paladins have a number of kewl abilities. Upon passing, have the Celestial split up what Paladin abilities he has and give each PC one of them (or, if you're really generous, let them pick one).

* Lay On Hands
* Protection From Evil
* Smite Evil 1/day
* Divine Grace
* Turn Undead
* Special Mount

There you go; six decent abilities you could split and give to a large party.
Alternately, you might give the Sorcerer quasi-access to the Healing domain, allowing him to cast a domain spell in addition to his regular spells. Of course, each spell is a Healing one, but it's better than nothing. You could even be generous and have it linked to his Charisma (like a Favoured Soul) instead of Wisdom.

 

[Drowbane]

~ Prestige Class ~

As a member of this Healer-less party... I'm *all* in favor of Aymeric being able to pick up some healing spells.

It is my opinion that this would be an idea time to hand-craft a PrC that would allow this Exalted (read: uber holy) Sorc to either gain Lay on Hands.... or spontaneously cast healing so many times per day.

Magic Missile to Cure Light Wounds?

 

[Jubilee]

It's interesting to me that you consider the necessity of Grace to be a limit. I don't see it as such--it is to me the logical result of having a deep spiritual connection to the divine. It is only a limit for those players that want to play divine spellcasters without role-playing religion or spirituality. Persons unwilling to role-play spirituality need not apply for the position of divine spellcaster IMC. I feel strongly about this. You don't have to be religious IRL, but you have to want to portray a spiritual character. To me, that does not seem an unreasonable request.

Please don't misunderstand me and assume that I don't roleplay. I was addressing my comment towards your assertion (backed up by the poster who is in your gaming group), who felt uncomfortable or limited by your views on clerics.

I also don't think that any GM who doesn't impliment Grace & a set code of conduct for their clerics is giving players permission not to roleplay. Remember, in D&D, you don't even have to worship a specific deity (unless you're playing FR). You can uphold a concept, reflected in your choice of domains.

For instance, in a current Eberron campaign (wherein it is not required to worship a deity, and deities are not nearly so influential as in FR), I have a cleric with the domains of Luck & Retribution. She depends on her luck to get her through & she's determined to bring some hurtin' to whoever blew up Cyre. She doesn't worship a deity and she isn't even a member of a particular church. She's good aligned, and does alot of charity (mostly for Cyran refuges - most of the rest of the world can hang, so far as she cares) between snooping around looking for information. She's moonlighted as a thief to get information she wanted, and she's also worked as a bounty hunter. She has a moral code of conduct all her own, which I don't feel I need to go into. However, it is definately not a paladin's code (she's chaotic, for starters). Does this mean I'm not roleplaying?

I don't think it would be that challenging to play a cleric who follows the rules of his or her deity. Afterall, in another campaign I play a paladin, and from what you & your player have said, it sounds like clerics in your game are really paladins with more spellcasting & less fighting. You've every right to rule that clerics ought to be like that, as GM, but obviously, as you've said, it's something that at least some of your players are uncomfortable with, so I'm suggesting alternatives for them.

Your comment does bring up another question for me, which I thought you ought to ask your sorcerer before you give him a stronger divine connection & god-granted divine spells - Does he want that responsibility? Does he want to shoulder the burden of the code of conduct you place on clerics - or will you not expect him to do so when he gets powers?

There's a bard in the party, but she chose not to take healing spells. Druids aren't viable only because of location--the party's in an area in which druids are not found natively (IMC, races & classes are often regional), so a druid's player would need a really good reason for why he'd be in a foreign land in an urban setting.

There's an urban druid varient in, I think, Unearthed Arcana. It might have been a dragon magazine, though.

 

[ForceUser]

Please don't misunderstand me and assume that I don't roleplay. I was addressing my comment towards your assertion (backed up by the poster who is in your gaming group), who felt uncomfortable or limited by your views on clerics.

I also don't think that any GM who doesn't impliment Grace & a set code of conduct for their clerics is giving players permission not to roleplay. Remember, in D&D, you don't even have to worship a specific deity (unless you're playing FR). You can uphold a concept, reflected in your choice of domains.

No offense, but bugger that. I don't care what the PHB states; to me, divine spellcasters are representatives of the powers of divinity (whatever that means within a particular character's cultural context), and as such, are held to a higher standard than all other classes. But I get to do that, because it's my campaign world.

For instance, in a current Eberron campaign (wherein it is not required to worship a deity, and deities are not nearly so influential as in FR), I have a cleric with the domains of Luck & Retribution. She depends on her luck to get her through & she's determined to bring some hurtin' to whoever blew up Cyre. She doesn't worship a deity and she isn't even a member of a particular church. She's good aligned, and does alot of charity (mostly for Cyran refuges - most of the rest of the world can hang, so far as she cares) between snooping around looking for information. She's moonlighted as a thief to get information she wanted, and she's also worked as a bounty hunter. She has a moral code of conduct all her own, which I don't feel I need to go into. However, it is definately not a paladin's code (she's chaotic, for starters). Does this mean I'm not roleplaying?

Of course you're role-playing. (For the record, let's not turn this into a paladin thread--ugh). But to me, that is not a character with a connection to the divine, and I would not allow that concept as a divine spellcaster IMC. No offense, but giving to charity does not make one spiritual, it makes one generous. However, I have no problem with it in your campaign, it's just not what I do. If you're having fun, great!

I don't think it would be that challenging to play a cleric who follows the rules of his or her deity.

It is incredibly difficult to live righteously, from a Judeo-Christian perspective (upon which the clerics in my world are based). That is why the concept of sin is so prevalent in such cultures--as an aside, I would love to explore in a future campaign how D&D's concept of exaltedness might interact with Eastern religions, whose primary concern is not sin, but suffering.

Afterall, in another campaign I play a paladin, and from what you & your player have said, it sounds like clerics in your game are really paladins with more spellcasting & less fighting. You've every right to rule that clerics ought to be like that, as GM, but obviously, as you've said, it's something that at least some of your players are uncomfortable with, so I'm suggesting alternatives for them.

I appreciate the interest and the input.

Your comment does bring up another question for me, which I thought you ought to ask your sorcerer before you give him a stronger divine connection & god-granted divine spells - Does he want that responsibility? Does he want to shoulder the burden of the code of conduct you place on clerics - or will you not expect him to do so when he gets powers?

In fact, he does. He's going to attempt to walk the path laid out in the BoED. I'm looking forward to it.

There's an urban druid varient in, I think, Unearthed Arcana. It might have been a dragon magazine, though.

Bleh. Druids have a distinct place IMC, and urban areas isn't one of them. I am not one of those DMs that allows every option from every book--I allow many, many options, but always tailored to specific cultures and regions. Druidism is the priesthood of a culture of Germanic Celts in my world, and as such is rooted in that region alone.

 

[Aaron L]

There is nothing at all preventing an arcane caster from healing beyond some odd D&D tradition. If you want it in your game, there are feats allowing it, and nothing odd about it at all. Clerics can blow stuff up just as well as a sorcerer can, so allowing sorcerers to heal isnt going to crowd out the cleric.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Forgive me if this has been said before, but if you are worried about it, give the sorcerer "Healing Touch" spell for free from the BoED. That way the sorcerer can heal ... but there is still a cost so the MT will still be the primary.