D&D (2024) Should bring back diverse spellcaster level design.

[EzekielRaiden]

Honestly, Ezekiel, if you're worried about change for change's sake or complexity for complexity's sake or whatever you need to go to WotC and complain to them for putting out a new edition or a revised edition. I'm just suggesting a cool thing they could put into that revised addition that would be nifty to have.

Okay.

Who benefits from this change? What are those benefits?

Sell me on it. Don't just say it would be cool or nifty. What is gained from making things work this way? And what is paid for it?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No, this is frankly a terrible idea. Making one class' 9th level spell to be equal to another's 7th level spell and third's 5th level spell is massively unintuitive and annoying. It is just making things more confusing for no sensible reason.

 

[Faolyn]

No. But I think each class should far more unique spell lists, with very little crossover. Although I'm not sure what to do with the wizard/sorcerer thing, since as written, sorcerers are basically blasty wizards. Maybe make up multiple spell lists, or say they can pick spells from any list but only from a select number of schools.

 

[Steampunkette]

Okay.

Who benefits from this change? What are those benefits?

Sell me on it. Don't just say it would be cool or nifty. What is gained from making things work this way? And what is paid for it?

I can't sell what you don't want to buy. You walked into this conversation showing, clearly, that your mind was made up on this being complexity for complexity's sake from your very first line. In my response I broke down how it wasn't for complexity's sake, the benefits it would create in the first -line- of my response, and why your argument toward growing the brand was fallacious.

If you had wanted to understand the benefits, you'd already know what I think they are.

I've neither the time nor the energy to try and unwedge that boulder.

No, this is frankly a terrible idea. Making one class' 9th level spell to be equal to another's 7th level spell and third's 5th level spell is massively unintuitive and annoying. It is just making things more confusing for no sensible reason.

We exist in a world where England uses pounds, kilograms, and stones to measure weights but -this- is massively unintuitive?

I expressed my reasons. If you find them nonsensical I can't help ya.

No. But I think each class should far more unique spell lists, with very little crossover. Although I'm not sure what to do with the wizard/sorcerer thing, since as written, sorcerers are basically blasty wizards. Maybe make up multiple spell lists, or say they can pick spells from any list but only from a select number of schools.

It'd certainly help, for sure!

 

[Burnside]

I'd rather it be left up to players & DMs whether a given character's magic is divine or arcane or occult or otherwise in origin, rather than codified in the rulebook.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

We exist in a world where England uses pounds, kilograms, and stones to measure weights but -this- is massively unintuitive?

That is massively unintuitive nonsense too, and you're basically trying to convince people who are used to metric to swap to such an incoherent system.

I expressed my reasons. If you find them nonsensical I can't help ya.

You really didn't express any reason beyond wanting it them to be different to be different. I want classes to be more differentiated too, but switching some boring numbers around so that they become more confusing is not a good differentiation.

 

[Faolyn]

We exist in a world where England uses pounds, kilograms, and stones to measure weights but -this- is massively unintuitive?

To be fair, most people don't use these all at the same time. Few people say "this weighs 8 kilograms, 3 ounces." At least not seriously (I did know a woman who would use "meteryards" when talking about measurements in-game).

 

[cbwjm]

I think one of the things I'd hate about this system is going back to the old "Same spell, different level" that classes had. One of the things that I think was an improvement in 5e was the decision to make spells like animate dead a 3rd level spell instead of 3rd level for a priest, 4th level for a wizard. I far prefer that spells have a set level and that level is the same for each class, no matter when they gain access to those spell slots.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Wizards and Sorcerers should have 9 levels of Arcane Spells.
Clerics and Druids should have 7 circles of Divine Spells.
Bards and Warlocks should have 5 mysteries of Occult Spells.

I think 9 spell levels is still too many. Plus the fact that all the existing spells at level 7 and higher, with the lone exception of Wish because it's a sacred cow, do not add anything truly beneficial to the game. I think it's all bad design at those level.

My frustration is with half casters and third casters. I think it's fine to get a spell level 2-3 levels behind a full caster. I think it's honking absurd to get a spell level 6-9 levels behind a full caster. Simply put, there is no way for those new spells to still be the same spells that the other class got and not have them end up completely underpowered. It's ridiculously depressing as a player.

So, what I would do is this:

Level	Heavyweight Caster	Middleweight Caster	Lightweight Caster
1	1	-	-
2	1	1	-
3	2	1	1
4	2	2	1
5	3	2	1
6	3	2	2
7	4	3	2
8	4	3	2
9	5	4	3
10	5	4	3
11	6	5	4
12	6	5	4

And then I would limit the number of spells per level per day. Heavyweights get up to 4 spells per level per day. Middleweights get 2-3 spells per level per day. Lightweights get 1-2 spells per level per day.

I don't particularly care what happens above level 12, and 5e's design tells me that WotC doesn't really, either.

Yeah this would be a nightmare to sort out with multiclassing.

Multiclassing rules are a tail wagging the dog. The game should, first and foremost, work with single class rules. If rules can't be envisioned that make sense, then ditch multiclassing.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I honestly don't think it is a good Idea.
Part of that balancing was having the same spell at different levels for different classes.

yeah the idea of keeping 3rd level spells balanced with 3rd level spells only works if you remove fireball... but I think it is worth a try.

I'm not on board for bringing back 'differences' just for difference sake.