Should charismatic players have an advantage?

[S'mon]

In a way, a charismatic player is probably "beating" the game in the same way the archetypical "DM's wife/girlfriend" supposably does...

Possibly in some cases, but the usual complaint with the wife/gf is that the DM won't kill her PC, gives her the best treasure, etc - without effort by the wife/gf. I think that's distinct from in-game effort by the charismatic player giving a good result for him/her.

 

[S'mon]

Social interaction mechanics exist so a player without a silver tongue can play a character with a silver tongue. If (as has been said above) I'm playing the 20 CHA bard with maxed out social skills but the guy with the 6 CHA barbarian with maxed physical skills and no social skills to speak of, is the one always doing the talking (and succeeding!) I'm going to feel gyped and wonder what the point of me taking all those social skills was.

I appreciate that. My preferred solution is to treat the PC's mechanical social skills as an additional resource the player can call on - so a player with average charisma who makes an average speech can roll the CHA check vs an average DC.

However I personally don't like to have very-low-CHA players (like the one in my OP) playing high-CHA PCs, or very-low-INT players playing high-INT PCs. Neither makes an enjoyable game experience for me IME. RPGers being who they are, the former is a lot more common than the latter these days, few people with low INT make the effort to play D&D anymore when they could play video games instead.

 

[Morrus]

I appreciate that. My preferred solution is to treat the PC's mechanical social skills as an additional resource the player can call on - so a player with average charisma who makes an average speech can roll the CHA check vs an average DC.

However I personally don't like to have very-low-CHA players (like the one in my OP) playing high-CHA PCs, or very-low-INT players playing high-INT PCs. Neither makes an enjoyable game experience for me IME. RPGers being who they are, the former is a lot more common than the latter these days, few people with low INT make the effort to play D&D anymore when they could play video games instead.

You don't tell them "you're not popular enough to play that character", do you?

 

[S'mon]

I don't play much at lager cons.

Me neither - I did go to a Real Ale con once, though.

 

[S'mon]

And, you measure "role plays well" not against the other players, or against some "objective" of charisma, but relative to the player's own ability. If he's thinking about it and putting in effort, you give him the bonus.

Like a runner trying to beat his own best time, he's in a competition with himself, not anyone else.

So you actually discriminate against the more skilled player? Interesting. I think there's definitely a cultural shift going on. I'm reminded a little bit of this story.

 

[Barastrondo]

Possibly in some cases, but the usual complaint with the wife/gf is that the DM won't kill her PC, gives her the best treasure, etc - without effort by the wife/gf. I think that's distinct from in-game effort by the charismatic player giving a good result for him/her.

This is probably a very controversial viewpoint to take, but I would lump both under "player skill" as it's often so nebulously defined and contrasted to character ability. Games that stress character ability over "player skill" are usually set up to minimize the issue of the charismatic player or the person who is making the GM really happy away from the table getting all the benefits. Now, getting in-game advantages for making the GM happy away from the table isn't a particularly ethical application of player skill, and it's pretty much an unfair advantage, but it's still a human interaction skill -- if you were doing it poorly, then the GM would be resentful and prickly.

Similarly, an SO often can have an advantage in reading the GM -- if he spends a lot of time with her away from the game, learning her tastes and preferences and personality quirks, he can develop the ability to read her plot twists and anticipate which NPCs are likely to be trustworthy, just because he knows her really well as a person. Heck, a skill like that would often be lauded if it were developed by someone who wasn't in a relationship with the GM.

It's distinct from in-game effort, yes, but the same is true for the person who reads up on the genre in his spare time and therefore knows when the best time to try swinging from the chandelier might be. It's also true for the person who always brings snacks and drinks and gets on everyone's good side by being generous. These are good skills to have as players, even if they're often discounted as "player skill" because they don't directly relate to knowledge of the game itself.

 

[S'mon]

Other than good faith (which is important, but we are talking hypotheticals here), what's to prevent the above player from completely dumping his CHA (let's assume nothing else in his build requires it) and not bothering to pump his social skills, Thereby gaining a significant mechanical advantage?

He will lack the mechanical resource of high PC social skills, so when he does have to make a skill check he'll probably fail.

Actually Han Solo seems a great example of a charming guy whose player has not invested in Bluff or Diplomacy training for him. The 'Han' player can go a long way through use of his native charisma, but when a situation comes up where the NPCs are inevitably suspicious, he'll only have a low mod on his skill check, and likely fail. The best strategy (at least IMCs) is usually to reinforce your player strengths with PC mechanical augments - the smart or charismatic player will gain most, not least, from having a PC with resources invested in those areas.

 

[S'mon]

You don't tell them "you're not popular enough to play that character", do you?

I might say "If you're playing a Bard, I expect you to roleplay in-character". And yes, I have gone more towards vetoing character concepts recently. I haven't actually got any low-CHA regular players in my games currently, though there is one guy who kinda forces his way in occasionally if his regular game's not running, he won't take no for an answer. All my regular players are charming, wonderful people.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Han Solo is such an under optimized character. He must have min/maxed his Pilot skill and neglected his Bluff and Move Silently.

 

[Argyle King]

I think out-of-game player traits shouldn't have an impact on in-game character traits.