Should charismatic players have an advantage?

[Hussar]

I have no idea what Michael Jordan looks like, so if I did give him my cell phone, it wouldn't be due to his fame. What about NPCs who don't recognise the PCs? Does the PC get +0 on his roll instead of +15 then?

Really? Ok, pick famous person you do recognize then. The point still remains.

You are far and away more likely to give some famous person your cell phone than you are some random stranger on the street.

However, you example does outline the point perfectly. Famous person with no diplomacy isn't recognized. How do we mechanically represent that? Well, when you rolled your diplomacy, it failed. Why did it fail? The guy doesn't know who you are and tells you that he won't give you his cell phone. However, because MJ is pretty darn famous, this isn't going to happen all that often. So, he gets that +15 diplomacy, just because of his level and his level of fame.

Where did this correlation between higher level and fame come from? A far as I know, nowhere at all is there any expectation that being any particular level has anything whatsoever to do with how well known you are, and it hasn't in decades.

Page 172, 4e PHB:

Each epic destiny defines your lasting impact on the world or even the universe: how poeple forever afterward remember and talk about you.

Some people achieve lasting famer or notoriety without achieving an epic destiny, but that's a fleeting thing. Inevitably, those poeple are forgotten, lost in the murky depths of history. Your epic destiny ensures that your name and exploits live on forever.

3e was the only edition to not directly link fame to level. AD&D, you built a stronghold (or home of some sort depending on class) and attracted followers based on your level.

And, let's be honest, level and fame are pretty indelibly linked. It would be difficult, not impossible, but difficult, to achieve 20th level in 3e without achieving some degree of fame and recognition. You'd pretty much have to work very, very hard not to. There's a reason Mordenkainen and Elminister are well known after all. Yet, no one seems to remember that 3rd level thief that got ganked in a pit trap.

 

[S'mon]

So you define level as 'fame' and the +15 bonus to CHA checks as a fame bonus. Presumably you don't treat the +15 bonus to STR checks as a fame bonus - or do you? "The door recognises your legendary fame, and breaks apart"?

I don't see any indication that that +15 bonus is supposed to derive from fame. It derives from actual personal power. The PC is supposed to *really* be better at intimidation, diplomacy etc at 30th level, whether or not the target recognises him.

I think my approach of treating the mechanical bonus as a resource the player can call upon is by far the better approach - far better than 'play the character in front of you' or convoluted explanations of why CHA 10, no Diplomacy-training 30th level PCs *always* get +15 bonuses to Diplomacy checks.

 

[S'mon]

You are far and away more likely to give some famous person your cell phone than you are some random stranger on the street.

Only because (a) I might expect they would give it back again or (b) they actually do have high personal CHA - as many celebrities and politicians do.

I wouldn't give Naomi Campbell my cellphone though, because I know her reputation, whereas if a random woman asked to borrow my cellphone... well I still probably wouldn't let them have it. People in England just don't do that. I'd probably assume they were going to steal it.

 

[LurkAway]

So, he gets that +15 diplomacy, just because of his level and his level of fame.

Because of his level or because of his fame?

And, let's be honest, level and fame are pretty indelibly linked.

Yes, let's be honest. Take 2 equally talented singers (ie., same singing level). One gets on American Idol and one stays out of the spotlight. Do they both get a diplomacy bonus because of their level? Does the former get a diplomacy bonus if I never watch American Idol?

Getting to a high level might offer potential for fame, but I think that branding and marketing, how you advertise your 'level' is the clincher.

For every story (in fantasy or real-life) of a hero who basks in the rewards of fame, I think there's another story where the hero is unknown and unloved.

To me it seems, you get a diplomacy bonus if you're famous and you're fortunate that the person in any one locale has seen you or has heard of you and believes you are who you say you are.

3e was the only edition to not directly link fame to level.

I think no edition of D&D has an instant fame-spreading medium, allowing the common citizen to recognize the faces of heroes, like TV and Internet. I'm pretty sure that's missing in all D&D. Being recognized at your local pub is one thing...

There are stories passed, of course, being passed around orally, from village to village, but with all the different stories out there, all jumbled together like typical myths and tall tales, I just cannot picture a teenage girl in the Village of Holly, who sees a mud-splattered battered bloodied dangerous-looking fighter and assumes "Oh, my, this is not a knight returning from war, this is no mere bandit or maurauder, no, that is Michael Jordan, as I imagined in my head in the story that my ma told me who heard it from her neighbour who heard it from the shoeshiner who heard from the bartender in the village yonder who heard it from... yes, the details of his face, and his armour (which never changes), all come clearly to me now through that vague, possibly embellished, possibly inaccurate tale and I definitely recognize this man!!!!" [rushes off to greet the dangerous-looking warrior]

 

[cattoy]

The fundamental reason most people would more than likely offer their cell phone to a famous person is that the famous person is more than likely to give it back.

Why? Without even knowing which famous person, the answer is because a famous person has more to lose by not returning the phone than the value of a phone. Fame is a commodity, and if you are famous and do dumb things, you will do damage to the value of that commodity. Look at how much financial damage Tiger Woods took when it was revealed that he was cheating on his wife. Not only is he going to suffer mightily because of a messy divorce settlement, he lost many endorsement contracts, valued at millions of dollars per year. That's a lot of damage to take for some illicit nookie.

Now, your average celebrity isn't going to lose quite that much literally or figuratively, because they failed to return a borrowed cell phone, but the hit to their popularity is probably going to be measurably more than the cost of just buying a cell phone.

So, yeah, most people would happily lend a cell phone to most celebrities simply because

A: they expect they'll get it back.
B: they expect they'll get some bragging rights out of it.

In that light, I loaned dice to Steve Jackson once. I don't even remember if I got them back.

 

[prosfilaes]

I'm not sure if he's increasingly persuasive, so much as his fame just buys him a lot of latitude.

I mean, if I walked up to you on the street and asked (politely) to use your cell phone, you'd probably say no, or at least give me a seriously hairy eyeball. But, if Michael Jordan walked up to you on the street and asked you (politely) to use your cell phone, I'm thinking you'd most likely hand it to him immediately.

The power of fame, as expressed by level in D&D, is pretty far reaching. [...] Or that people would believe my words (Bluff) more easily, simply because I'm on first name terms with dieties.

I've got two problems with this. One, everyone knowing what a celebrity looks like is a new thing; prior to 1838, there were only hard to reproduce artists's renditions of what people look like. Dalamar probably could have strolled down downtown Palanthas and likely nobody would have seen him as anything but another elf.

Second, sure, acting with Bugs Bunny gives you lifelong fame. Donald Knuth is probably the most influential computer scientist alive, and probably not one in a 100 people could recognize him. Grigoriy Perelman solved the Poincaré conjecture, a mathematical problem open for almost 100 years and worth a million dollars to the solver; I bet there's almost as many people who would recognize you or I on the street as he.

Between the two? A cleric who leads religious functions and spreads the healing around might recognized by face in the extended local area and by outfit and name over a large area. On the other hand, a fighter who doesn't live it up or lord it over the peasants may have some reputation with the local orcs (not by face though; probably not an orc alive who has got a good look at his face) but it's quite likely he has no real fame in the town, and could walk into another town and no one would know him from Adam, especially if he didn't give his name.

 

[Hussar]

Meh, you can spin it however you like. Me, I look at someone who's a demigod, who's legend will live forever in this word as being pretty persuasive when he talks to someone, not because he's had any real training, but, because he's freaking Hercules.

Why did his str go up? Well, 30 levels of adventuring is likely going to tone a few muscles.

Why does there have to be one and only one explaination? Physical stats go up because you're doing hard, physically demanding stuff. Mental stats go up because you're older, wiser, seen more, and hopefully learned a thing or two along the way. Cha goes up because you're just that famous.

Doesn't seem to convoluted to me.

And, IMO, it's a far better solution than having people just ignore their character sheet whenever they feel it's convenient. If I wanted to do that, I'd play games where that's expected.

 

[LurkAway]

True, there is no one right way. But, there are more than a few wrong ways.

I'm not sure if he's increasingly persuasive, so much as his fame just buys him a lot of latitude. <snip> I think that the 3e version is actually flawed. That 3e character SHOULD get mechanical bonuses based on his level.

[significant disagreement from some]

Meh, you can spin it however you like. Me, I look at someone who's a demigod, who's legend will live forever in this word as being pretty persuasive when he talks to someone, not because he's had any real training, but, because he's freaking Hercules.

Well that discussion technique was interesting. No wonder certain threads go on and on.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, LurkAway, threads go on and on and on when people cherry pick definitions and quotes and then try to make a point.

Now, are you trying to say that Hercules shouldn't get a bit of latitude when he talks to someone? That a +15 diplomacy check to reflect the fact that he's freaking Hercules is out of line and completely unbelievable?

 

[JamesonCourage]

I don't think "unbelievable" is the problem. I think "consistent" is. Yes, Hercules is epic, and most people know his name. What about the hermit that doesn't? If he still gets that +15 from fame alone, then it's not consistent. If it's from something else as well, then I don't think there's much of an objection.