Should Clerics Have Access to all Cleric Spells?

[howandwhy99]

One of the things that I disliked about 3.xE Clerics is that all Clerics had access to all Clerical spells. I personally would like to see a system similar to specialist Wizards, where Cleric spells are divided into various domains. Clerics of various religions would then have a couple of domains that they would get domain powers and domain spells from. They would also have a couple of domains that they did not have any access to. What those domains were would depend on what god they worshipped.

Personally I think that this would make religion choice a bit more interesting. It would also meant that a Cleric of the god of Good and Healing wouldn’t have the same spells prepared as a Cleric of Evil, Death and Magic.

What does everyone else think?

Olaf the Stout

Essentially domains as spell list chunks that potentially overlap? That could be cool. Divine casters gaining all spells as known to start is specific rule to the divine magic system. I doubt they will change that too much. Even if it is more of a setting element than a generic rule.

 

[Dacileva]

It was always too much that (if the DM allowed it) every new supplement dramatically expanded a PC cleric's spell choices, which not doing the same for the wizard without cost & research.

I forget in which source I saw this, but I use the suggestion that new cleric and druid spell choices only be added by removing existing choices (unless the spell fills what I see as an existing hole in divine casting capability).

 

[Delta]

It was always too much that (if the DM allowed it) every new supplement dramatically expanded a PC cleric's spell choices, which not doing the same for the wizard without cost & research.

Bingo. That's been a fundamental flaw in the cleric setup since OD&D Greyhawk said that clerics have access to allpossible spells. Their power and complexity has just expanded endlessly as the game expanded.

In my 3E game I use Unearthed Arcana's "Variant: Spontaneous Divine Casters". I like the flavor and it solves the problem solved for me: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm

 

[Wik]

One of the things that I disliked about 3.xE Clerics is that all Clerics had access to all Clerical spells. I personally would like to see a system similar to specialist Wizards, where Cleric spells are divided into various domains. Clerics of various religions would then have a couple of domains that they would get domain powers and domain spells from. They would also have a couple of domains that they did not have any access to. What those domains were would depend on what god they worshipped.

Personally I think that this would make religion choice a bit more interesting. It would also meant that a Cleric of the god of Good and Healing wouldn’t have the same spells prepared as a Cleric of Evil, Death and Magic.

What does everyone else think?

Olaf the Stout

Wasn't this already done in 2e?

I like the idea, but I think a better way of doing it is to use the simple "sub-in" method that's been suggested here. More or less, all clerics get their spell list, and if they want to add non PHB spells to it, they have to lose a spell from the PHB list to get access to it. You want Crazy 1st Level Spell? You have to lose Bless from your list and put that spell on it.

Though, something tells me clerics are going to be a lot different in 4e anyways.

A neat way of doing it would be (and I know it's been mentioned on this thread already) a core list of clerical spells that all clerics would want, and then choose a few domains that expand upon your spell list. So that every cleric would have a customized spell list. And maybe you could memorize 75% of your spells, but the other 25% are free choices, or something.

I dunno.

 

[Li Shenron]

Given their announced focus on simplify the game, I think it would be completely wrong if they keep it like 3e...

We've often had cleric and druid players spend more time choosing spells than anybody else.... browsing tens of cool and interesting spells mid-game, only to end up preparing the same stuff again because after all it's more useful.

Plus, there were the discussions about how unfair it is that each supplement with cleric spells by default boosts all clerics automatically.

Having clerics automatically know a full list of spell would be ok only if the core list is very small (e.g. 4-6 spells per spell level).

 

[Flobby]

I for one would happy if they got rid of spells for the cleric. Just give them a couple general abilites that all clerics could use (like Heal, Bless, Harm, and Curse, or something) and then talents trees that give them more specific powers corresponding to the god(s) they serve (like the Death talent, Nature talent, etc...) And that way they could probably just put the druid and cleric together.

But I could see the logic in keeping the classes seperate even if they did do this. The druid could be for a more 'animistic/spritualist' religion. But then spells might fit into this theme...

And no spells for the paladin too! The paladin could be a holy warrior with some granted power talent trees but less spell-like abilities.

 

[blue.octopus]

I think all Clerics must choose a power to worship - either a single being or a pantheon.

If you worship a single being then you get all spells from that beings granted domains and a diety specific power.
If you worship a pantheon then you can choose spells from differnt dieties up to some limit.
In addition - all clerics have a general clerical domain list granted through study and ritual prayer observance - and this covers general healing and spells.

I think undead turning should not be granted to all clerics either - but that you get control/rebuke of different types of being based on the domains you choose.

 

[Wormwood]

I for one would happy if they got rid of spells for the cleric. Just give them a couple general abilites that all clerics could use (like Heal, Bless, Harm, and Curse, or something) .

I really, really hope they try something like this in 4e.

Give the cleric a pack of supernatural abilities and leave it at that.