Should Clerics Have Access to all Cleric Spells?

[drothgery]

I think the 'generic cleric' spell list is much too broad, and domains too narrow, but the generic list should still be there, if only to cut out a lot of redundancy and to allow adventure designers to make some baseline assumptions about what a cleric can do.

If 4e used 3.x spell mechanics, I'd say a cleric should be able to fill his spell slots with generic cleric spells or domain spells, what he casts spontaneously should be domain-dependant, that about half the cleric list should be shuffled off into domains only, and that most domains should have 2-3 spells/level, not just one. However, it seems clear that 4e spellcasting mechanics will not resemble 3.x very much, so that's probably a bad example.

 

[Dinkeldog]

The problem with the domains in 3/3.5 was that there was only a single spell available at each spell level. I also agree that 2nd did this better, but when I was setting up my homebrew, I had to make sure that everyone had access to specific spheres because every cleric player wanted access to those spells. The Cure xxx Wounds spells, Hold Person, Neutralize Poison...those should be universal. I ended splitting and re-splitting the priest spells.

What I liked about 3/3.5 was the inclusion of the occasional traditionally arcane spell in the spell lists based on domain. "Shapechange" being in the Animal Domain, for example.

 

[TwinBahamut]

...Do we even know that Clerics still have spells? Honestly, I wouldn't mind if more cleric-style things like Turn Undead and Lay on Hands were vastly expanded into something that was totally different from Vancian spellcasting. It would help fix the oddities of the nonsensical Arcane-Divine split.

 

[Greg K]

For my 3.x campaign, clerics are spontaneous casters and have access to spells from

3 domains from their deity
1 domain from deity's alignment
spells from a generic list

Generic List*
1 Bane, Bless, Divine Favor
2 Augury, Enthrall
3 Bestow Curse, Prayer, Remove Curse
4 Divination, Lesser Planar Ally (Specific by deity), Imbue w/spell ability
5 Atonement, Break Enchantment, Commune, Mark of Justice, Greater Command
6 Geas/Quest, Planar Ally (specific by deity)
7 contact other plane
8 Greater Planar Ally (specific by deity)
9 Miracle

* Cure spells come from the deity of healing not the positive material plane (does not exist in my campaigns). Inflict spells come from god of harm not the negative material plane (does not exist in my campaigns).
Clerics of good deities without healing domain add cure spells up to 5th level
Clerics of neutral deities add cure spells up to 3rd
Clerics of evil deities add inflict spells up to 5th level. They can't cast cure spells, because they bring about harm and destruction. Therefore, the goddess of healing refuses to grant them the ability to heal. It sucks to be evil!

 

[thundershot]

YES!

YES YES YES YES YES!

Have the UNIVERSAL domain that ALL clerics get, and then pick two domains to draw the other spells from. Or something like that... That's one thing I HATE about Clerics in 3E. Too many options is a bad thing. Especially when everytime a new book comes out with new cleric spells, the cleric suddenly becomes more versatile, and potentially unbalanced. They should have a more limited selection of spells. Yes. Definitely.


Chris

 

[FireLance]

I know a lot of people don't like the ardent from Complete Psionic, but I think that's the way that acquisition of clerical spells should go in 4e. You have a number of "domains" or "spheres", each of which grants access to a number of spells. Domains are not limited to one spell per level, nor do they necessarily need to contain spells of every level. With such a set-up, I can see two possibilities:

1. Clerics have access to a number of domains, and gain a limited number of spells known which can be chosen from any of his domains. When he gains a level, he can select more spells known. This is the option that is closest to how the ardent gains powers known.

2. Clerics choose one primary domain and one or more secondary domains. He has access to all the spells in his chosen primary domain, and gains a limited number of other spells known which can be chosen from any of his secondary domains. When he gains a level, he can select more spells known from his secondary domains. This option is closer in spirit to the current incarnation of the cleric (especially if there is a generic domain that he can select as his primary domain). However, this still cuts down significantly on the cleric's "automatic" increase in spells known when new supplements are released.

If there is a generic cleric domain, I hope that it won't have too extensive a spell list. Those of you who are familiar with Dark Sun will probably know what I mean when I say I do not want a repeat of the sphere of Cosmos.

 

[F4NBOY]

If they keep domains, each domain should have a longer list of spells.
The spells from both domains are the spells the cleric have access, period.
If they don't keep the domains, than there should be a spell list for each element of a God's portofolio, good, lawful, animals, earth, fire, etc.
The cleric should have access only to the spells regarding his deity's portfolio.
The main healing ability should be a spell like ability, not a spell, pretty much like the Greenbond's from Arcana Evolved.

 

[frankthedm]

Yes! A shorter default list with more "Domain spells" for each level sounds like a wonderful idea.

 

[ideasmith]

There should be a finite limit to how many spells known a spell caster can have, and it should be less than 30 times spell level. I am withholding judgement on how much lower.

 

[Testament]

As Firelance said, making their Spheres (to use the old term) function in a similar fashion to the Ardent would work nicely alongside a generic Cleric list.

Of course, this assumes that the 4E cleric resembles the old cleric in any way.