Should clerics turn outsiders instead of undead?

[kenjib]

I was thinking about how in 1e clerics turned undead and outsiders. I don't know about 2e, but by the time 3e came they had dropped the outsider thing.

Does anyone else think that they got it backwards?

Turning undead is very mythos-specific, but turning outsiders seems to be much more flexible and befitting divinely granted power of all diverse types.

 

[Celebrim]

I think this is one of those calls you need to make based on your setting. I don't think there is a right and wrong way to do it, though if you are worried about it, clerics already get a large number of outsider 'handling' spells.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Well- turning is the release of positive energy to repel creatures fueled by negative energy.

I think the good domain should allow the person to turn evil outsiders- maybe that would make the domain worth taking.

FD

 

[Jeph]

Well- turning is the release of positive energy to repel creatures fueled by negative energy.

I think the good domain should allow the person to turn evil outsiders- maybe that would make the domain worth taking.

FD

Hmmmm . . . that could fix *all* the alignment domains! Evil domain=turn good outsiders, chaotic domain=turn lawful outsiders, good domain=turn evil outsiders, lawful domain=turn chaotic outsiders! Instead of a stupid +1 bonus to spells you never use anyway!

 

[Vicegrip]

--I dunno, I tend to think that the turn undead power in 3e beats so much ass, it's almost a problem. If you add outsiders into the mix, the cleric gets pretty seriously powerful. On the other hand, outsiders don't tend to be wimpy and numerous like undead do, so maybe being able to turn them wouldn't be that great, as it would mostly fail.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I've done the "alignment domain fix" and the Sun domain gives you the power to turn undead IMC. I replace the turning undead power with...well, something special that you'll have to wait for Philosophies and Falsehoods to see. ^_^

 

[Furn_Darkside]

...well, something special that you'll have to wait for Philosophies and Falsehoods to see. ^_^

The new fad of writers- the cruel tease.

FD

 

[Pielorinho]

I agree with FD -- alignment domains, like elemental domains, oughtta have the power of turning opposite-alignment critters. This'll be balanced by the fact that they don't allow the caster to control similarly-aligned critters.

Another fix for these domains would be to make them as summoning domains, and the domain spells would be higher-level summoning spells. Thus, the first-level domain spell would be summon monster II, and so forth.

As it is, these domains are pretty sucky, and I've never seen anyone take them.

Daniel

 

[Staffan]

--I dunno, I tend to think that the turn undead power in 3e beats so much ass, it's almost a problem. If you add outsiders into the mix, the cleric gets pretty seriously powerful. On the other hand, outsiders don't tend to be wimpy and numerous like undead do, so maybe being able to turn them wouldn't be that great, as it would mostly fail.

Hmm. Turning undead is good on paper, but it usually only works against hordes of undead wimps. Let's compare undead CR with HD+turn resistance (for templates, I've assumed a regular character with HD = Level):
Allip: CR 3, THD (Turning HD) 6
Bodak: CR 8, THD 9
Devourer: CR 11, THD 12
Ghoul: CR 1, THD 4
Ghast: CR 3, THD 6
Ghost: CR level+2, THD level+4
Lich: CR level+2, THD level+4
Mohrg: CR 8, THD 14
Mummy: CR 3, THD 6
Nightwing: CR 14, THD 17
Nightwalker: CR 16, THD 21
Nightcrawler: CR 18, THD 25
Shadow: CR 3, THD 5
Skeleton, Tiny: CR 1/6, THD 1/4
Skeleton, Small: CR 1/4, THD 1/2
Skeleton, Medium: CR 1/3, THD 1
Skeleton, Large: CR 1, THD 2
Skeleton, Huge: CR 2, THD 4
Skeleton, Gargantuan: CR 7, THD 16
Skeleton, Colossal: CR 9, THD 32
Spectre: CR 7, THD 9
Vampire: CR level+2, THD level+4
Vampire Spawn: CR 4, THD 6
Wight: CR 3, THD 4
Wraith: CR 5, THD 7
Zombie, Tiny: CR 1/6, THD 1/2
Zombie, Small: CR 1/4, THD 1
Zombie, Medium: CR 1/2, THD 2
Zombie, Large: CR 1, THD 4
Zombie, Huge: CR 3, THD 8
Zombie, Gargantuan: CR 6, THD 24
Zombie, Colossal: CR 12, THD 48

There are *no* undead where CR is equal to or greater than the THD, which would be the "right" time for a cleric of that level to encounter a single one. Note that the turning table doesn't extend to infinity - a clerc can never turn an undead with more HD than his level+4. That means that a cleric will never be able to turn a single mohrg, nightwalker, nightcrawler, Gargantuan+ Skeleton, or Huge+ Zombie (in an encounter with EL/CR = his level). He'll need to roll 16+ (or even more in many cases) on a d20+Charisma check to turn almost any other undead, such as the templated ones. And let's not even think about what would happen to a multiclassed cleric or to a paladin.

No, turning is pretty neat for a low-level party encountering a bunch of skeletons, or a mid-level party ambushed by a group of shadows, but it's not very useful against single reasonably powerful undead.

 

[Grazzt]

There is a feat in the ELH that allows clerics to turn outsiders.