Should Dungeon and Polyheadron be in the same magazine

[Belen]

Dungeon adventures just do not offer the sheer length of the older ones. Most of the adventures are too short to run as more than an encounter or filler material for a game session.

The adventure path, while good, means that you do not get the same variety of adventures. You're left hoping that the one adventure in Dungeon is good enough to use. Otherwise, you have to wait another month!

Honestly, I think that Paizo could stop paying people for their accepted submissions and use the saved money to bring us more adventures. I do not think anyone would mind the loss of such little money compared to have your name appear in Dungeon!

Poly was more useful as an RPGA publication. Heck, the RPGA was more useful when it was a subscriber organization!

However, I still believe that Dungeon would do well on its own. I also cannot imagine that B&W ads would bring in less money.

Heck, at our journal, we can barely afford color. It costs $900.00 per page of color and that is not a full color page. We have MEDICAL companies like Merck and GlaxoSmithKline who are more than willing to publish B&W ads.

Halftones are much cheaper to produce than color, which is why I do not buy the argument from Paizo in favor of color. Those companies will still place their ads in Dungeon/ Poly and the cover will remain color. Heck, cool covers sell a magazine far more than the appearance of the inner mag.

I know too much about publishing.

In any event, I think Pqaizo could make the switch. However, I wonder if WOTC is not yanking the chain on this one. They want the official mags in color even if they do not own them any more. I know that a cost savings could go into event.

Heck, those ad companie could still PAY for color in a B&W mag. We have people who do so in our journal and we only have a subscription base of 5000! I'll bet that Dungeon is higher than that.

 

[The Sigil]

WRT to the original thread...

Stand-alone, poly is okay. I wouldn't pay for it, but I don't care of someone else wants to. But I love "Dungeon" and as part of "Dungeon," eating up space that could be devoted to Dungeon material... hate poly. Can't stand poly. Feel Dungeon is 100x more useful than Poly and every page devoted to poly instead of Dungeon is "wasted" in that sense (I know, I know, Paizo combined them and it's "in addition to" not "instead of" but my visceral reaction is that if there's a page in a magazine with "Dungeon" on the cover, it should be devoted to Dungeon).

Dungeon adventures just do not offer the sheer length of the older ones. Most of the adventures are too short to run as more than an encounter or filler material for a game session.

Honestly, I think that Paizo could stop paying people for their accepted submissions and use the saved money to bring us more adventures. I do not think anyone would mind the loss of such little money compared to have your name appear in Dungeon!

However, I still believe that Dungeon would do well on its own. I also cannot imagine that B&W ads would bring in less money.

In any event, I think Pqaizo could make the switch. However, I wonder if WOTC is not yanking the chain on this one. They want the official mags in color even if they do not own them any more. I know that a cost savings could go into event.

Heck, those ad companie could still PAY for color in a B&W mag. We have people who do so in our journal and we only have a subscription base of 5000! I'll bet that Dungeon is higher than that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... even though I have let my Dungeon subscription lapse. Paizo is on a bad business model and has refused to change it in the face of cold hard facts and I fear that (sadly) it will be their downfall, leading to an end of Dungeon. See my post below for more details
Dungeon/Poly Deathmatch thread

 

[Erik Mona]

Belen said:
>>>
I know too much about publishing.
>>>

You don't have a very good grasp on how we do business, unfortunately. Our rates for a full-color ad are considerably more expensive than $900 per page. Advertisers _will_ pay more for color. A color magazine _will_ get better distribution (on average), which means it's getting to more stores. Further, there's a lot of evidence that a consumer is more likely to purchase a color magazine once he's got it in his hands.

A good number of things are going to change with Dungeon over the next year. I can assure you that it will _NOT_ be going to black and white. If that's the dealbreaker for you, I'm afraid to say that you'll probably not be coming back to the magazine any time soon.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine

EDIT: An editor ought to be able to catch its/it's, eh?

 

[Simplicity]

One person commented that the Adventure Path reduces the number of useable adventures in Dungeon. I have to disagree there.

The Adventure Path is the best thing to happen to Dungeon since... uh...
Dungeons? Anyways, it's great stuff. The only problem that the shorter
magazine poses is that sometimes the Adventure Path adventures have to be so short that they seem to either be cut down or cut in half, so that they don't form a viable whole. It seems clear to me that this is what happened with Secrets of the Soul Pillars. The adventure just doesn't make any sense as is.

Anyways, keep the Adventure Path coming.... Start another one and I'll
be buying every issue instead of every other...

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I wish the publishers would have put out a poll like this before they made their decision. Personally I prefer them separate. I bought my Dungeon subscription for the adventures... not for Poly. I want a magazine full of adventure-goodness which considering the cost is what I should get with almost NO ads. I've never used any of the Poly stuff because for the most part I stick with D&D and never stray to any of the mini-games they seem to include in almost every issue. The addition of Poly is the primary reason why I did not renew my subscription. Hopefully if enough people follow suit Paizo will get the message and make Dungeon what it was supposed to be... all adventures... all the time.

 

[The Sigil]

Belen said:
You don't have a very good grasp on how we do business, unfortunately. Our rates for a full-color ad are considerably more expensive than $900 per page. Advertisers _will_ pay more for color. A color magazine _will_ get better distribution (on average), which means its getting to more stores. Further, there's a lot of evidence that a consumer is more likely to purchase a color magazine once he's got it in his hands.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine

This is why I love ENWorld. When we casual fans get too full of ourselves and our own opinions, we can get a healthy dose of reality from those who actually ARE acquainted with the facts... rather than go off our own speculation and get a skewed view of what we believe to be the facts.

Thanks, Erik!

FWIW, it is a fact that my opinion is that I dislike Poly in Dungeon... but that's the only thing I'll claim to be a stone, hard fact in this thread.

--The Sigil

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Just out of curiosity why couldn't the magazine size increase to make more room for ads so that the price of the subscription come down? My wife always gives me a hard time that when she picks up a copy of Cosmo it cost next to nothing but my magazines (Dragon/Dungeon) cost so much more. I open them up and blam... pages upon pages of ads.

 

[diaglo]

Just out of curiosity why couldn't the magazine size increase to make more room for ads so that the price of the subscription come down? My wife always gives me a hard time that when she picks up a copy of Cosmo it cost next to nothing but my magazines (Dragon/Dungeon) cost so much more. I open them up and blam... pages upon pages of ads.

it might have something to do with the small number of gaming companies that can afford to advertise in Dungeon.

or the type of ads.

i still laugh at the fat ones...or the how to get a date one.

 

[jaerdaph]

A good number of things are going to change with Dungeon over the next year.

Just want to say keep up the good work - I've always enjoyed Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, and in the last couple of years, now more than ever.

 

[Belen]

Belen said:
>>>
I know too much about publishing.
>>>

You don't have a very good grasp on how we do business, unfortunately. Our rates for a full-color ad are considerably more expensive than $900 per page. Advertisers _will_ pay more for color. A color magazine _will_ get better distribution (on average), which means its getting to more stores. Further, there's a lot of evidence that a consumer is more likely to purchase a color magazine once he's got it in his hands.

A good number of things are going to change with Dungeon over the next year. I can assure you that it will _NOT_ be going to black and white. If that's the dealbreaker for you, I'm afraid to say that you'll probably not be coming back to the magazine any time soon.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine

Actually, the small number and length of the adventures are the dealbreaker for me.

Obviously, I do not know how much you charge for color. We charge $900 per page of color and we operate at a loss. Even then, color is confined to figures and not the entire page.

In comparison, a B&W page costs $60/ page.

I am not as much and advocate for the B&W issue as some others are; however, I do think that steps could be made to reduce costs of the mag, such as type of paper used etc. The glossy paper you guys use is unbelievably expensive, although it reproduces artwork well.

I wouldn't mind hearing some of these changes you keep hinting at.

Tell you what. If I like what I hear, then I will subscribe to the magazine, including Dragon, right after I get paid on Thursday.

Contrary to popular belief, I do not hate Paizo. It just that the switchover from WOTC (never receive my last 5 months of subscription on either Dungeon of Dragon) plus format change and the distribution problems have made having a subsciption less than optional.

I wouldn't mind seeing you guys take a few risks with the material every now and again like deviating from 3e generic standard (ie. DS rewrite)