Should Dungeon and Polyheadron be in the same magazine

[kamosa]

You know, I really have to wonder why nobody produces cheap magazines on cheap paper stock with cheap four-color inks anymore. If it's in color, it has to be slick and glossy and photoshopped to hell and back and therefore ridiculously expensive. Has the printing industry shifted over the last decade so that there just isn't any money to be saved by using low-grade pulp? Or is it just that distributors won't carry cheap stuff anymore?

Of course, publishers simply insist that nobody will buy a product that isn't glossy merely because it's affordable and has good content, but I have a bit of trouble accepting that explanation. Do we really HAVE to live in the age of three-dollar comic books?

I totaly agree. Seems like it survived for much of it's life as a non-glossy cheap source of adventures. I always chalked it up to Wizards people that came in and wanted a slick production value face lift for all of D&D. That was fine for the handbooks and maybe even for Dragon, but I never thought it worked for Dungeon. I think it fundamentally misunderstood what Dungeon was. It wasn't a magazine per se, it was a bundled set of adventures. As such it didn't need any better printing or production values than any other module. People that didn't understand gaming but knew magazines took over and rammed home their "improvements". By the time it got passed over to Pazio the changes where in place and they had to be paid for. Insta price raise.

KODT kind of did the same thing a couple years ago. They kept adding new material. Everyone said, we love the new stuff, but we would rather not have it if it means raising the price. They promised up and down that they wouldn't raise prices. They ranted about how we were getting two magazines for the price of one. Then, they raised prices due to increased printing costs of the larger magazine.

So, they got dropped from my subscription list as well.

It's not really that I mind that they need the money, it was the bastard way of "sneaking" in an extra profit stream. We all saw it coming and said we didn't want it, but they did it anyway. I haven't tried the ENworld adventure bundles. Does anybody have any reviews of them?

 

[Keith F Strohm]

You know, I really have to wonder why nobody produces cheap magazines on cheap paper stock with cheap four-color inks anymore. If it's in color, it has to be slick and glossy and photoshopped to hell and back and therefore ridiculously expensive. Has the printing industry shifted over the last decade so that there just isn't any money to be saved by using low-grade pulp? Or is it just that distributors won't carry cheap stuff anymore?

Of course, publishers simply insist that nobody will buy a product that isn't glossy merely because it's affordable and has good content, but I have a bit of trouble accepting that explanation. Do we really HAVE to live in the age of three-dollar comic books?

There are actually quite a few publishers who do that very thing--though they are mostly literary journals, some sf mags, and the like. As to why Paizo publishes Dungeon in color, there are a few reasons. One, of course, is that we can provide a higher quality reading experience of the magazine and a higher utility value to our consumers. Another reason has to do with the fact that a good portion of Dungeon's sales come from bookstores, where it has to compete on the shelf with electronic gaming magazines and a plethora of high gloss products. Also, Paizo does make some money selling advertising, and advertisers are more likely to place an add in a high-quality color magazine than a black and white, non-glossy periodical.

I'm also curious as to what you consider ridiculuously expensive, but that might be better served in a different thread.

Anyway, I am certainly enjoying and reading this thread with interest.

Keith Strohm
Vice President
Paizo Publishing, LLC

 

[kamosa]

I'm also curious as to what you consider ridiculuously expensive, but that might be better served in a different thread.

When you can go down and buy a full module for the same price as Dungeon, that's when it started to cross a boundry for me. I only have so much money a month to spend on adventures. So, would I rather get a full module or a mini module.... Guess which one gets my dollar. When I could get 4 or 5 modules for half the price of a stand alone module, that was a good deal. I didn't care if not every module worked in my game world, for the price I could pick and choose which ones to use.

I subscribed for many many years to Dungeon, it was sad when I decided it just wasn't worth the money anymore. But, it just wasn't, and I could use the money to pick up modules instead.

 

[Keith F Strohm]

When you can go down and buy a full module for the same price as Dungeon, that's when it started to cross a boundry for me. I only have so much money a month to spend on adventures. So, would I rather get a full module or a mini module.... Guess which one gets my dollar. When I could get 4 or 5 modules for half the price of a stand alone module, that was a good deal. I didn't care if not every module worked in my game world, for the price I could pick and choose which ones to use.

I subscribed for many many years to Dungeon, it was sad when I decided it just wasn't worth the money anymore. But, it just wasn't, and I could use the money to pick up modules instead.

Fair enough. And thanks for the reply.

I do want to say that we have some VERY exciting things planned for Dungeon (and Dragon) in the very near future. I do hope that you can be persuaded to give it another look. I'll think you'll be surprised--pleasantly. They'll be more details forthcoming in these very board, I would assume.

Pax,

Keith Strohm
Vice President
Paizo Publishing, LLC

 

[James Heard]

When you can go down and buy a full module for the same price as Dungeon, that's when it started to cross a boundry for me. I only have so much money a month to spend on adventures. So, would I rather get a full module or a mini module.... Guess which one gets my dollar. When I could get 4 or 5 modules for half the price of a stand alone module, that was a good deal. I didn't care if not every module worked in my game world, for the price I could pick and choose which ones to use.

Sure you can, but Dungeon is usually of better quality and has more 'stuff' in it as well thanks to Poly being bundled. Sure I don't buy every Dungeon that comes out, but Dungeon certain has plenty more bang for my buck on the long run than a magazine on video game reviews or current events. Also, since it's about the same price as a paperback it really BETTER be in full color and glossy or otherwise I don't know what I'd be paying for at all. Some issues I buy for Poly, others for Dungeon. If Dungeon and Poly and Dragon were all bundled for 15 bucks each month in one magazine I'd probably find value in that too. They're just that more useful and interesting than most random 3rd party supplements on the shelves these days, I suppose because they've been doing it longer than anyone else.

 

[Silver Moon]

As for measuring the "bang for the buck", I find that Dungeon has always been and remains a great value. The amount of material inside is great for the price (espeically at the subscription rate).

I also enjoy both the Dungeon and Poly sides to it. As as for the monthly vs. bi-monthly argument, I view the arrival of this magazine in my mailbox as being a visit from an old friend. I'd rather have my friend show up 12 times a year than 6.

 

[The Gryphon]

I'll throw in my opinion.

It's not that readership increased... in fact it probably didn't. It's that now instead of your overall readership paying for only six issues a year, they're paying for twelve, and that's what covers the cost of running the magazine.

Added to that is that their costs probably decreased having one monthly magazine instead of two bi-monthly ones, especially where printing and shipping is concerned. No need for two printers, no need for managing two subscription lists. Everything is basically streamlined.

Finally, I think that there's probably a psychological factor involved in getting something every month. There's a definite mental correlation between how soon you receive something and how valuable it is. This has been shown many times. If you get something every month, it seems like it's more, even though it's in reality it's the same or less.

LightPhoenix is right on the money about the monthly vs. bi-monthly costs. When I enquired why they had changed and wouldn't return to a split bi-monthly magazine (Dungeon one month and Polyhedron the other) when this all started, I was told that they had to maintain two sets of everything running it that way which greatly increased costs.

No-one complained about the amount of content 30 issues ago (2000), just before the change to 3rd Edition. At that time a Dungeon issue contained about 70 pages of adventures, was on lower grade paper, there were only two staples holding the magazine together which could rip out if care wasn't taken, and had a cover price of $4.95. We've just been spoiled by our recent good fortune of getting so much in Dungeon (issues #82-90) and then the combined Dungeon/Polyhedron (issues #91-96) for so little since the advent of 3rd Edition D&D.

I think they should have taken more than $1.00 from the cover price when the magazine became a monthly though, and reduced it to the same price as Dragon.

 

[Piratecat]

Fair enough. And thanks for the reply.

Keith, thanks for posting here. We get threads both praising and criticizing Paizo publications, but these are always improved when someone from the company weighs in. It's appreciated.

 

[Simplicity]

No-one complained about the amount of content 30 issues ago (2000), just before the change to 3rd Edition. At that time a Dungeon issue contained about 70 pages of adventures, was on lower grade paper, there were only two staples holding the magazine together which could rip out if care wasn't taken, and had a cover price of $4.95. We've just been spoiled by our recent good fortune of getting so much in Dungeon (issues #82-90) and then the combined Dungeon/Polyhedron (issues #91-96) for so little since the advent of 3rd Edition D&D.

Well, the presence of these boards was quite a bit smaller back then too. This was more of a rumor site. When big-wigs showed up, we usually went ooooohh aaaaaahhh... But, now everyone at WotC and Paizo gets yelled at when they come here.

Anyways, I like the glossy color. The art in Dungeon has seen a definite improvement over the last few years, and I really love the little "features" that get thrown in (Faces of Cauldron, Giant maps, etc.).

It also means that I can find Dungeon at magazine racks, rather than having to find an FLGS to get it. Just being able to be sold on a common newstand is good for the magazine, good for advertising in the magazine, good for the D&D brand.

 

[Davelozzi]

It also means that I can find Dungeon at magazine racks, rather than having to find an FLGS to get it. Just being able to be sold on a common newstand is good for the magazine, good for advertising in the magazine, good for the D&D brand.

Can you? I'm not doubting you, but I'm very surprised. I have never seen an issue of Dungeon or even Dragon at anyplace other than an FLGS (except of course in my mailbox).