D&D 5E Should Hunter's mark (Ranger spell) drop Concentration requirement?

[Zardnaar]

He will not start every battle good to go. You don't short-rest after every battle. Not by a long shot. That's a good way to get your party caught in a surprise round by monsters that find you. I've found Action Surge comes up about once every 4 battles or so.

In our group, the two-weapon fighting 5th level Ranger with Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark wielding dual Battleaxes (dual wielder feat, two weapon fighting style) is destroying our fighter in terms of damage dealt. He's a spinning machine of death.

As for removing concentration from Hunter's Mark - I don't think it would break anything if you allowed it to be cast in a higher spell slot to do that.

Archer Ranger is more or less doing the same thing at lvl 5/6. The OP example was for a higher level fighter. Ranger has out of combat stuff as well, the fighter gets more feats/stat buffs.

One trick I have thought up is the fighter uses one of his bonus feats to take magic initiate for hex as it lasts an hour.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Yes, I mean spells like Hunter's Mark and Swift Quiver. He gets only 2 of the latter per day at 20th level.

Yeah, I know. But he can cast Hunter's Mark at least 4 times a day, and more if he wants to use up a higher level spell slot.

I'm the first to admit that my math prowess is laughable, but how did you come by those numbers? Using Colossus Slayer and Hunter's Mark a ranger does around 150 damage over 5 rounds not 208. Did I miss something? And that's using an expendable (Hunter's Mark) and hoping his concentration won't get broken. How does that compare with fighter's flat 200 damage over 5 rounds without using any expendables? Factor in at least a couple Superiority Dice and maybe even an Action Surge, and he's well over 250 as well as, I dunno, knocking guys prone or incurring disadvantage or something.

You're right, that was a typo. It's 40 damage every round over 5 rounds, for a total of 200 damage. So I was off by 10, not by 50 like you are. And I did this with a freaking calculator just now so I don't know how on earth you got 150. I was also comparing this to the damage after a fighter has used those dice, as it is likely that he won't use everything he has all in a flurry of 5 rounds which would be kind of stupid.
Would you mind doing me a favor? I've been providing you with my math. Would you mind showing us how you got to over 250? I believe it, I just want to see it, in fairness and all.

Not entirely true. Swift Quiver is concentration too, so he can't use it in tandem with HM. SQ would give the ranger around 210 damage over 5 rounds, just a little bit more than the fighter. And note that this option includes casting a 5th level spell, of which a ranger has only two per day. In this experiment, let's then allow the fighter to use his Action Surge as well (he also gets two of those, but they refresh after a short, not a long rest). Such a fighter would then dish out 240 damage, or 280 with both AS. And that's still not taking into account a single SD which would push him over 300. That's not "narrowly beating", that's a huge advantage.

I didn't include HM in that calculation. 4d8+20 is from a longbow with a 20 dexterity using swift quiver which gives 4 attacks a round when added to his flat 2 attacks. The extra 1d8 comes from colossus slayer. I didn't do the math, but doing it just now, 5d8+20 over 5 rounds doing max damage each round is 300 damage. And he can do that for 12 rounds. So... yeah that doesn't even looks like "narrowly beating". A fighter has to use everything to get up to that kind of damage. A ranger casts a single spell, of which he has 15.

Well, a bunch of those spell slots will go to HMs, SQs and the like, right? I mean, you did include them in your math. I'm not denying ranger has extra spells and utilities, but then again I didn't mention fighter's stuff as well: 2 more feats (or score boosts), other SD effects which are quite beneficial, etc. Look, I'm not denying that a ranger has a role to play, but I simply think he's neither here nor there. He's much, much, weaker in combat at higher levels than either fighter or paladin, and his utilities aren't all that great. Helpful, certainly, but nothing to write home about. And again, a rogue that is a better survivalist and tracker than a ranger? How's that for a character concept?

4 will go to HMs and 2 will go to SQs. The other 9 will go to other things, and they last a heck of a long time. Hunters Mark lasts for an hour. So for 4 hours a day a ranger can keep an extra 1d6 damage. Or he could cast it as a 5th level slot, and use it all day long. I really doubt either of us want to do a calculation on an average 5 encounter day with one short rest and how much damage a fighter or a ranger would do over that amount of time. But saying much much weaker? Even though I've shown that it's only a matter of around 20 damage over the course of an encounter? That's hardly much much weaker, and you still haven't shown how the utilities aren't that great. And sure, you might have a rogue that is a better survivalist and tracker, but guess what? They aren't better at combat. Everything in 5E is about trade offs. A ranger is a jack of all trades, skillful, knowledgeable, and powerful. A fighter is powerful, but not very skillful or knowledgeable. A rogue is knowledgeable and skillful, but not very powerful.

If you want to continue with this, fine. But hyperbole, lack of evidence, and a disregard for the rest of 5E's mechanics won't get you very far.

 

[Minigiant]

My issue is that rangers are practically addicted to one spell: Hunter's Mark. Every ranger with half a brain will have it prepared and 50% of your spell silts go to it in most campaigns with frequent combat.


Some start Hunters Mark Anonymous.

A bluebird opens his mouth. "Hello Joni. It's me Johan. I spilled again. All my slots except this Animal Message was used on Hunter's Mark. I lost concentration. So many orcs."

 

[Zalabim]

Over 5 rounds, the fighter throws 38 (4d8+20) damage each round for 190 damage total. Each AS used adds 38 more. Each SD used adds 6.5 more, at a minimum. (Using precision attack to turn a miss into a hit is worth more damage, but I won't calculate that.) These features are restored by a short rest and they automatically get 1 SD for an encounter if they had none.

Over 5 rounds, the ranger throws 23.5 (3d8+10) damage on round one as the bonus action is used to cast swift quiver. Then throws 42.5 (5d8+20) damage on the next four rounds for 193.5 damage total. Alternatively, the ranger throws 30.5 (3d8+2d6+10) damage per round with HM for a total of 152.5. A beast master instead of hunter could throw 28 (14+6d4) from the flying snake and 13(1d8+1d6+5) with hunter's mark for 205, or 9.5(1d8+5) round 1 and 28.5(3d8+15) with swift quiver for 263.5. Foe Slayer adds 25 damage to this against a favored enemy (Same caveat as precision attack here). The ranger can cast swift quiver twice a day, hunter's mark up to 13 times after that, and has a 25-35% chance to lose concentration whenever taking damage. The flying snake has flyby attack and 60 ft flying speed.

Over 5 rounds, the rogue throws 43.5 (11d6+5) damage each round for 261 total as the thief gets two turns in the first round of every combat. The rogue does not have the same attack bonus as the others, but could be attacking with advantage by hiding every round. The thief can instead use an object as its bonus action and use magic devices, if one is available.

6 Encounter totals: Fighter 1255+115 per SR, BM Ranger 1347+150 against FE, Hunter Ranger 997+150 against FE, Rogue 1566.

If paladins weren't banned from ranged weapons (more or less) they'd conceivably throw 33(4d8+2d4+10) damage per round for 165 in this contest with divine favor. As is, they can pull in 33(2d8+4d4+14) with elemental weapon on a longbow in place of swift quiver for 132(165 with it precast), or 22(2d6+2d4+10) each round for 110 with divine favor using thrown weapons if you don't like a rapier-wielding paladin.

Analysis: The fighter is at a respectable baseline and can throw fairly renewable resources for more damage. The rogue is a striker. The hunter ranger suffers in these comparisons because its 11th level feature (Fighter's 3rd attack, Beast Masters 2nd companion attack, Paladins automatic 1d8 smite, Pact Blade Warlock's +Cha to damage) is a multiattack rather than increased single target damage. Precasting is hugely important with Swift Quiver. Both standard archers need Sharpshooter, which the fighter will have at less cost. The ranger can hide like the rogue each round, unless it is using swift quiver. The ranger will drop a lot of concentration spells in practice. Don't cry when the beast master's companion dies every day.

 

[Mr Fixit]

If you want to continue with this, fine. But hyperbole, lack of evidence, and a disregard for the rest of 5E's mechanics won't get you very far.

Let's get this out of the way. I've been nothing but respectful in each and every post in this thread and on the boards at large. So why this veiled aggression?

Okay, let's continue.

You're right, that was a typo. It's 40 damage every round over 5 rounds, for a total of 200 damage. So I was off by 10, not by 50 like you are. And I did this with a freaking calculator just now so I don't know how on earth you got 150.

Let's see... Ranger. Two attacks per round.
Attack 1: d8(4.5) (weapon) + d8(4.5) (colossus slayer) + d6(3.5) (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex mod.) = 17.5
Attack 2: d8(4.5) (weapon) + d6(3.5) (hunter's mark) + 5 (Dex mod.) = 13
Damage per round: 30.5. Damage over 5 rounds: 152.5
Where did you get the other 50? It's possible I missed something.

Would you mind doing me a favor? I've been providing you with my math. Would you mind showing us how you got to over 250? I believe it, I just want to see it, in fairness and all.

Okay. Fighter. Four attacks per round.
Each attack: d8(4.5) (weapon) + 5 (Dex mod.) = 9.5
Damage per round: 38. Damage over 5 rounds: 190

Both of these calculations don't include magic weapon bonuses (by level 20, +3 probably) which brings ranger up to 182.5 (10 attacks with +3) and fighter to 250 (20 attacks with +3). All of this without a single Superiority Die nor Action Surge spent. If the fighter were to spend his top potential in those (sure, not in every battle, but in important, big battles, if the party is likely to take a short rest afterward to collect themselves, why not? Will he hold back while party members die around him?), he could dish out 320 (using 1 Action Surge (50dmg) and half his SD (20dmg)) to the maximum of 390 damage for both AS and all SD.

...doing max damage each round is 300 damage...

Huh? Why would the ranger be doing max damage?

Ah... this has gone completely off-topic. I didn't intend to bore everyone to their deaths with all this. My point wasn't to pedantically debate every pro and con of these classes, but simply to ask you guys if it would be better for hunter's mark not to be tied to concentration (and ideally to take it out of the spells completely and transfer it to core martial features). For reasons of flavour, overall damage, etc.

 

[Zalabim]

From what I can see, the whole Ranger class needs a rewrite. In the meantime, giving only the Hunter subtype permanent Hunter's Mark is a good stopgap. It'd let them use their other spells to bridge the gap between hunter and beastmaster. I'd recommend it being added alongside their level 11 or level 7 feature.

At level 11, the Hunter may cast Hunter's Mark without expending a spell slot. The spell no longer requires concentration and only ends if the Hunter is incapacitated. The Hunter is still limited to having only a single target marked as a quarry, but may choose a new mark as a bonus action. The new quarry must be within range of the spell, and the old quarry is no longer marked.

Or something.

This hunter would throw 56.5 (5d8+4d6+20) per round during swift quiver, for 256.5 in 5 rounds, (Precast swift quiver, quarry on round 1, full power rounds 2-5)

 

[Mr Fixit]

From what I can see, the whole Ranger class needs a rewrite. In the meantime, giving only the Hunter subtype permanent Hunter's Mark is a good stopgap. It'd let them use their other spells to bridge the gap between hunter and beastmaster. I'd recommend it being added alongside their level 11 or level 7 feature.

At level 11, the Hunter may cast Hunter's Mark without expending a spell slot. The spell no longer requires concentration and only ends if the Hunter is incapacitated. The Hunter is still limited to having only a single target marked as a quarry, but may choose a new mark as a bonus action. The new quarry must be within range of the spell, and the old quarry is no longer marked.

Or something.

This hunter would throw 56.5 (5d8+4d6+20) per round during swift quiver, for 256.5 in 5 rounds, (Precast swift quiver, quarry on round 1, full power rounds 2-5)

Sounds good to me. Still lower than what a fighter can achieve, but that's OK. Fighter should be the damage-dealing beast.

 

[Dausuul]

Anyway, at low-mid levels the two classes are generally comparable, I won't really delve into numbers here. What I find most interesting is the DPR comparison (every attack hits) over the course of 5 rounds at 20th level.

[snip]

How to address it? Maybe lose the concentration requirement for Hunter's Mark?

So this is a problem which only exists at 20th level? If so, why are you applying a solution that will affect the entire level range?

Any analysis which focuses primarily or exclusively on 20th level is deeply, deeply flawed. You're ignoring 95% of the game to focus on 5%... and that's being generous and assuming all levels are equally represented. In 25 years of gaming across several different groups, I have played in exactly one game which hit 20th, and that was because it started at 18th.

If it's really so important to balance things at 20th level, tweak the ranger's capstone ability or add another one.

 

[Mr Fixit]

So this is a problem which only exists at 20th level? If so, why are you applying a solution that will affect the entire level range?

Any analysis which focuses primarily or exclusively on 20th level is deeply, deeply flawed. You're ignoring 95% of the game to focus on 5%... and that's being generous and assuming all levels are equally represented. In 25 years of gaming across several different groups, I have played in exactly one game which hit 20th, and that was because it started at 18th.

If it's really so important to balance things at 20th level, tweak the ranger's capstone ability or add another one.

Actually... I was thinking about that as Foe Slayer certainly seems inadequate. Addressing it would be quite helpful.

However, it's not only about level 20, though that's certainly where the disparity skyrockets. It's there long before that. And it's not solely about damage potential, it's about flavour also: I dislike HM being a spell in the first place, but there is also a practical concern of it stifling and railroading ranger's spell use. 5e introduces several potentially interesting "arrow spells" that function more as class features than spells, but they are usually tied to concentration, which, as one of the posters above said, seems like a mild abuse of an otherwise solid mechanic.

 

[Mistwell]

Over 5 rounds, the fighter throws 38 (4d8+20) damage each round for 190 damage total. Each AS used adds 38 more. Each SD used adds 6.5 more, at a minimum. (Using precision attack to turn a miss into a hit is worth more damage, but I won't calculate that.) These features are restored by a short rest and they automatically get 1 SD for an encounter if they had none.

Could you spell some of this out better? Why is it 4d8, why is it +20, what is SD, what level is this fighter, etc..

Edit - I see from other responses that it's level 20....so not really representative.

At 5th level, our Ranger is attacking with dual battleaxes, one of which is +1, for a total of three attacks each round (Regular, Extra Attack, Off-Hand Attack with both the feat and the style to support two-handed attacks), plus Hunter's Mark, plus Colossus Slayer. So that is 13.5 (1d8 x 3 attacks) + 4.5 (Colossus Slayer 1d8) + 10.5 (Hunter's Mark 1d6 x 3 attacks) +12 (Str 4 x 3 attacks) + 2 (two of the three attacks are magic) for an average of 42.5 each round, or 212.5 damage over 5 rounds.

And that is just at 5th level. At 11th level he will get whirlwind attack so each attack action can be against every creature in 5 feet of him. And then again at 15th level Stand Against the Tide will usually add another attack as a reaction (though using a foe's stats). And of course eventually his Strength will reach 20, and he will get a second magic item, and he will get great spells, and neat abilities like hiding as a bonus action, and +4 AC versus subsequent attacks from one creature, etc..

Ranger doesn't seem underpowered at all to me.