Should Implements have their own proficiency bonus?

[Klaus]

At first it was said that Implement powers never benefitted of the proficiency bonus that Weapon powers do because they target defenses other than AC, which tend to be 2-3 points lower than AC.

But we have tons of Weapon powers that target other defenses (like Piercing Strike, Shadow Wasp Strike, etc), and we have a few Implement powers that target AC (like Curse of the Bloody Fangs).

So, is the original reasoning obsolete? Should implements get their own proficiency bonus?

 

[Mort_Q]

IIRC, none of the weapon powers that target non-AC defenses are at-will, and the fact that they target non-AC defenses is usually their selling point. They also tend to have other caveats, or drop the STR bonus.

I can't say I see a problem.

 

[Siberys]

Plus, implement attacks that target AC usually have some bonus to hit or else have something else to make up for it.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Also, most powers that use implements are ranged, which is less dangerous than melee.

 

[Klaus]

Piercing Strike, weapon, Dex. vs. Reflex, rogue at-will.
Cunning Ferocity, weapon, Cha vs. Reflex, bard attack 3.
Hymn of the Daring Rescue, weapon, Cha vs. Reflex, bard daily 9.
Warden's Fury, weapon, Str vs. Fortitude, warden at-will feature.
Hungry Earth, weapon, Str vs, Fortitude, warden encounter 1.
Hail of Thorns, weapon, Str vs. Reflex, warden daily 5.
Blinding Smash, weapon, Str vs. Fortitude, fighter encounter 3.
Probing Attack, weapon, Str. vs. Reflex, fighter encounter 3.
Thwarting Shot, weapon, Dex vs. Reflex, ranger encounter 3.
Fox's Gambit, weapon, Dex vs. Reflex, rogue encounter 1.
Precise Incision, weapon, Dex vs. Reflex, rogue daily 1.

and this list is by no means complete.

 

[Obryn]

I know exactly what you're saying, and have wondered something similar.

I think it would be fine if more implement attacks just had static bonuses to attack, but absent that, it's a clear point in favor of weapon-users and against implement-users.

Implement powers tend to have more special effects, though, so it might all pan out in the end. I haven't given an exhaustive survey, so really can't speak to whether or not changing it would create balance issues.

-O

 

[Obryn]

IIRC, none of the weapon powers that target non-AC defenses are at-will, and the fact that they target non-AC defenses is usually their selling point. They also tend to have other caveats, or drop the STR bonus.

I can't say I see a problem.

The Rogue has one at 1st level. The Warlord does too, actually, but it's fairly low-damage and mostly serves as a buff-a-buddy power.

Klaus's point is that we see quite a few Weapon powers against Defenses, which effectively give +2 or +3 on the attack roll as a result of the Proficiency bonus. OTOH, there are very few Implement powers that give static bonuses to-hit.

It's a disparity, but like I mentioned, I don't know if it's a disparity counteracted by other things.

-O

 

[Duelpersonality]

The Warlord does too, actually, but it's fairly low-damage and mostly serves as a buff-a-buddy power.

In the case of Furious Smash it can actually be a detriment. Fortitude defense on a good portion of melee monsters is within 1 point of AC (and is sometimes 2 or more points higher). I know that it frustrates the inspiring warlord in my game to no end when he can hit more often with Viper's Strike than Furious Smash.

As far as I'm concerned Piercing Strike is the most efficient means of laying on sneak attack at low levels. When you consider that Reflex Defense on melee monsters tends to be 2-3 points lower than AC and rogues already have one of the highest attack bonuses possible, you're looking at an equivalent of +10 to +12 to hit at level 1 and they get to keep their Dex mod to damage. Take that, Twin Strike! (Oh, wait, TS is still better. Sigh.)

 

[keterys]

Well, this is easy... no, implements should not get a proficiency bonus because they target defenses that are lower than AC.

Other powers getting an effective bonus to attack because they get proficiency bonus and target other defenses isn't particularly material, anymore than it is for powers to get bonuses to attack (Sure Strike, Mesmeric Hold, etc)

Ie, it's okay for Piercing Strike to attack Reflex with a prof bonus in the same way that it's okay for Mesmeric Hold to attack Will with a +4 bonus.

 

[Klaus]

Add to that the fact that when Fighters, for instance, attack with a non-weapon "implement" (namely, a shield), the attack is at Str+2 vs. AC, making up for the lack of proficiency bonus.

By the same token, implement attacks against AC should be getting a +2 bonus to hit, shouldn't them?

As for "implement attacks are ranged, thus safer", there are plenty of ranged weapon attacks that target other defenses (most come from the Rogue and Ranger), so that argument doesn't exactly hold water.