D&D General Should magic be "mystical," unknowable, etc.? [Pick 2, no takebacks!]

[Charlaquin]

I'm not entirely sure that's true. There is a fair bit of technologized magic in Middle Earth. The Rings are constructed items after all. As are many other bits and bobs along the way.

It's just that all the folks who understood that construction are inaccessible to the reader.

Yes! This! What other races might call “magic elven rope,” the elves just call “well-made rope.” If they had known you had an interest in such things, they could have taught you how to do it.

Rings, as I understand them, are a little bit different though. They have more to do with the inherent power of authority. One who has authority over something has a measure of control over that thing. A ring smith can impart a portion of their authority into the ring, which can in turn impart that authority to its bearer. And that was the crux of Souron’s deception - he taught the other races of the magic of rings, and so had a measure of authority over rings themselves, which he then imparted into the master ring.

 

[Lyxen]

I prefer magic as science.

The thing is that everyone can understand science to a degree. But the principle of D&D is that only some people can understand and manipulate magic.

In that case we have to take into account the fact that players can play wizards, and wizards can do research to invent a new spell. A wizard pc, therefore, needs to have an understanding of how magic works - a deep enough understanding to do engineering with it.

This doesn't work if magic is unknowable. DnD magic is knowable, RAW.

Some D&D magic is knowable, or some aspects of it, but it does not mean all magic has to be knowable.

 

[Fanaelialae]

In that case we have to take into account the fact that players can play wizards, and wizards can do research to invent a new spell. A wizard pc, therefore, needs to have an understanding of how magic works - a deep enough understanding to do engineering with it.

This doesn't work if magic is unknowable. DnD magic is knowable, RAW.

Through experimentation wizards may have figured out that A+B=C and D+E=F. A wizard might research those experiments and through further experimentation find that A+E=C/F, creating a new spell. That doesn't necessarily mean that they comprehend the principles underlying its workings.

To use a real world example, people in ancient times built some really amazing things without having access to the formulas and learning that modern architects have access to. They figured out what worked and what didn't, but that doesn't mean they had worked out the physical principles of why it worked or could show you the math to prove it. In many cases they couldn't. Yet they nonetheless built impressive works.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Through experimentation wizards may have figured out that A+B=C and D+E=F. A wizard might research those experiments and through further experimentation find that A+E=C/F, creating a new spell. That doesn't necessarily mean that they comprehend the principles underlying its workings.

To use a real world example, people in ancient times built some really amazing things without having access to the formulas and learning that modern architects have access to. They figured out what worked and what didn't, but that doesn't mean they had worked out the physical principles of why it worked or could show you the math to prove it. In many cases they couldn't. Yet they nonetheless built impressive works.

Exactly. There is a huge gulf between knowing what works and knowing why it works.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Through experimentation wizards may have figured out that A+B=C and D+E=F. A wizard might research those experiments and through further experimentation find that A+E=C/F, creating a new spell. That doesn't necessarily mean that they comprehend the principles underlying its workings.

To use a real world example, people in ancient times built some really amazing things without having access to the formulas and learning that modern architects have access to. They figured out what worked and what didn't, but that doesn't mean they had worked out the physical principles of why it worked or could show you the math to prove it. In many cases they couldn't. Yet they nonetheless built impressive works.

Not knowing something doesn't mean it's unknowable.

Are you suggesting we cannot understand the basic principles of architecture?

Edit: put another way, how can someone know how to design and build a car but have no idea how an engine works?

 

[jmartkdr2]

Exactly. There is a huge gulf between knowing what works and knowing why it works.

But wizards can't know why it works? They can design new spells but can't figure out, that, say, A+D=G?

 

[Vaalingrade]

The thing is that everyone can understand science to a degree. But the principle of D&D is that only some people can understand and manipulate magic.

'Only some' here meaning 'people who study hard enough, are good at music, pray real good, commune with nature, hunt real good, get super angry, get super introspective, or have something weird in the family tree up to and including entire sapient species.

Basically, magic is understandable by more more people than science in D&D world because you can't be born scientific.

 

[Panzeh]

Generally, I feel like if it's something on your character sheet, it's knowable, and roughly scientific, even if the game is set before modern notions of the scientific method.

 

[Lyxen]

'Only some' here meaning 'people who study hard enough, are good at music, pray real good, commune with nature, hunt real good, get super angry, get super introspective, or have something weird in the family tree up to and including entire sapient species.

No, these can understand only SOME part of magic, but they can't do anything about other parts and specifically not cast a spell. And some will never be able to, since multiclassing is limited at least by stats. Adventurers are not common folk, and even them have limitations in that domain.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Not knowing something doesn't mean it's unknowable.

Are you suggesting we cannot understand the basic principles of architecture?

Edit: put another way, how can someone know how to design and build a car but have no idea how an engine works?

No, I'm saying that ancient peoples didn't understand the principles of architecture (at least not to the extent that they are understood today) and yet they built impressive structures nonetheless.

Obviously we can understand architecture. But is it so impossible to imagine that in a fantasy world, beings that are FAR more intelligent than the most intelligent mortals (ie, gods) could create a magic system that is literally beyond the grasp of even the most advanced mortal mind? I don't think so.

Hence, while aspects of magic (such as individual spells) are by necessity knowable, the actual principles that underlay the workings of magic may be fundamentally unknowable.

Your car example is flawed. By that reasoning, wizards would be creating magic systems themselves. That's atypical for fantasy, wherein magic is usually pre-existent and mortals merely figure out how to harness it. In other words, just because you can drive a car, and even come up with new driving stunts, doesn't mean you necessarily understand how the internal combustion engine works. It might be useful to know in some cases, but even if it's a complete mystery to you, you can still drive the car.

D&D magic certainly can be knowable. But it's equally fair to have it be fundamentally unknowable.