Should magic be unfair?

[RangerWickett]

I have a friend who thinks that saving throws are stupid, particularly Will saves for non-mind control spells. He thinks that, if a mage knows Telekinesis, he ought to be able to rip your heart out of your chest, or at least yank your sword out of its sheath, without you getting a save.

Now, from a game standpoint, that's silly. It would be ridiculously unbalancing. Sure, it doesn't take but a few pounds of force to close off someone's carotid artery, but no sane DM would allow Mage Hand to kill someone by starving their brain.

But from a narrative standpoint, it kinda makes sense. Some abilities are really strong, and maybe those sorts of powers should be higher level, and then not allow a save.

Poison should just run its course. A save would let you slow the progress of the poison, but not even the healthiest person can just shrug off a dose of arsenic. Likewise, a spell that rips out your heart just rips out your heart, and you die. No save to resist. The force that is necessary to rip someone's heart out is not that great, so it should be, at most, a 5th level spell. Afterall, at 5th level you can use telekinesis to lift boulders. Certainly you should be able to eviscerate someone, right?

This wouldn't fit the game's style, but does anyone want to have a game that is designed to emulate what magic would be like if it did exist, instead of a game in which magic is balanced for the sake of fun?

I know I don't. I just thought somebody else might.

 

[Commonblade]

I always viewed it really as a contest of wills. "I am to tough for that to work on me!" or "My will is unbreakable." This kind of thought processes mean we think certain things will work on us and others do not. So that Magic only works on somebody if they believe it does.

 

[Dogbrain]

Throw a mage with Telekinesis at the players some time, start by ripping out that player's character's heart. Then see how much "fun" he thinks it is.

 

[Telperion]

Sacrificial Heart
Kill a target by delivering his heart into your hand.
Necromancy[Death]
Clr 6, Death 6
V,S,DF
1 action
Close (25ft + 5 ft/ 2 levels)
Instantaneous
Fortitude Partial
SR: Yes

That's from Relics and Rituals, and it's enough to stop anyone's heart .

Anyway, I really don't like these Save or Die spells. Against regular NPCs the party doesn't bother using them, and when they run up against a BBEG he rolls a natural 1 and that's the end of that encounter. These days I almost always have a bunch of protection / immunity spells on a BBEG if I want him to do something else besides die in an ugly way. Those spells don't last no longer than a round or two, because the party has a Dispell specialist.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Everyone,

I think in many ways, magic should be unfair. It is a cheating of the "rules" so to speak.
However, let's look at your mage hand example. How much skill is required to get it to work just so? What level of spellcraft and concentration is required to get it to cut off the carotid artery so effectively? Should the circumstances of the victim affect this ability?
Matters of delicacy like this still work in d20 as you simply can't use mage hand to do this - although I'm sure you could research a higher level spell that could.
However, the magical brute force approach should be feasible at relatively low levels in d20 but for game balance, it is not possible.

Now, as far as gaming is concerned, I'm happy with this as it achieves some level of balance and thus a fun game. However, if you are trying to homebrew something then you always like to make 1+1=2. You say - "Well if this arcane power is possible, wouldn't they use it to do this?". I think this is in fact the dividing line between those who enjoy low/rare magic campaigns vs. high/frequent magic "gamey" campaigns.
Sometimes, players don't like to be told - "Well you can't do that because you just can't. OK. Rule 0." Readers quickly lose interest as well if the world does not make sense. The low/rare magic world is easier to be made to make sense compared to a high/frequent magic world.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[s/LaSH]

Interestingly, this is a situation that can be ameliorated by my Literal Hit Point Theory. This theory states, essentially, that hit point gain is a real increase in physical toughness, due to positive energy saturation picked up from fooling around with healing spells and the like over an adventuring career.

That energy can easily be given a side-effect: Protection against incidental magic. You can think of it as a structural integrity field - on a subconscious level, any creature will recognise an attempt to rip its heart out with TK, or pinch its carotid, and counteract it. (Even level 1 creatures have an awful lot of lifeforce, it's just not all devoted to holding them together - probably more along the lines of 'I can walk' and 'thinking', and the power can be diverted in such emergencies.) Gross force will work just as well, and if you can hurl the whole person a distance sufficient to kill them with impact, I'd rule that you can probably rip their heart out instead (you're powerful enough to kill 'em, either way, the rest's just a special effect).

Spells that do direct damage and the like are full-body effects of furious power. The lifeforce field can't do much against them other than weather the effects.

Power Word Kill and its ilk are specially designed to counteract the positive structural integrity field. But that's a very complex thing to do, so they're high-level.

So there's what I think. Useful?

 

[Toras]

I look at it this way. Magic, at least some form of it, exists in every living thing. This "magic" or influence over reality manifests through will, allowing them to exist in what are inherently magical worlds without being swept away. For nonmagic users this manifestation of will is limited to ones self-image, as projected by that self same will.

Thusly, when you wish to effect someone with that manner spell, it is their Will that must be overcome in order for the greater will of the caster to act on them. This is why things like fire, metal, and other materials don't get saves, but magical weapons do. The will they have been invested with by their creator (in terms of exp) sustains their being, and resists a caster attempting to alter or destroy that.

 

[JimAde]

My thinking is similar. My rationale is that living things usually get saving throws simply because they're alive. That alone means they have a certain magical "inertia" that must be overcome if they are to be affected. Non-living creatures like undead get a similar effect from whatever animates them. Creatures with more life force (higher level, better saves) are harder to affect. Spells that don't allow saves are usually of the type that create something and hurl it at the target (like Magic Missile). So in my game I don't see a logical problem. The saving throw is explained by the "fluff text" of how magic works.

So to address the original question: No I wouldn't want a game in which magic is unstoppably powerful and whoever casts first wins. No fun at all.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I'm reminded of the Guardians of the Flame fantasy novels. Wizards in that world cast irresistable spells. Cast a sleep spell - sorry, the people in the target area fall asleep. Cast a Fire spell, and whatever you cast it on lights of fire and incinerates. Same with Charm.

Wizards could resist certain spells, like Sleep, but only becuase of their magical aptitude.

 

[argo]

Sure there's nothing wrong with that kind of power, assuming you're willing to pay for it. I mean, how many fantasy novels do you read where wizards go around plucking out people's hearts without nearly killing them or driving them batty or something else in turn? Double edged sword and all that, the power to "cheat reality" aint a birthright ya know.

So if any 10th level spell slinger can walk around and pop out a heart two or three times a day with nothing more than a standard action and then wake up the next day ready to do it all again, then yes I do think that is wrong.

However, if you are playing a game like Conan where in order to cast a spell like Draw forth the Heart you need to be a 14th level caster who probably is this close to having his soul reposessed by a demon and it still costs him about 2/3 of his daily spell resources (unless he had the foresight to sacrifice a few virgins to power up first ) Well, that is something else entirely now isn't it?

And heck, even that spell has a save for Fort partial (save = 4d6 damage and only a patial action next round, failure = death). The truth is that no save spells just are not much fun.