D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Aldarc]

Thieves design goal was something that demimumans could multi-class with that had unlimited level advancement when your primary class level capped.

3e rogues design goal was to save the wizard some gold by not using as many wands of knock and invisibility.

5e is the first time rogues felt like they had a solid niche. So of course we have to give all its toys to the fighter and reduce it back to being the trapfinder npc class.

Of course, Wizard players also got salty about Rogues possibly gaining Expertise in any Intellect-based skill, like Arcana and being outshined by a mundane pleb, so Wizards may get some form of Expertise too.

 

[Remathilis]

Of course, Wizard players also got salty about Rogues possibly gaining Expertise in any Intellect-based skill, like Arcana and being outshined by a mundane pleb, so Wizards may get some form of Expertise too.

Do not remind me. I swear wizard players think they have an invisible class feature called "I'm a wizard" that basically means they are the best at everything.

 

[Maxperson]

Do not remind me. I swear wizard players think they have an invisible class feature called "I'm a wizard" that basically means they are the best at everything.

On the other hand, wizards are the literal masters of the arcane, and educated sages of things magical. It's seems odd that some uneducated street rat would far outstrip them at the one thing they are known for being the best at.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

On the other hand, wizards are the literal masters of the arcane, and educated sages of things magical. It's seems odd that some uneducated street rat would far outstrip them at the one thing they are known for being the best at.

Not sure. It seems fine to me if sorcerers are narrow but powerful within their specialisation and wizards are more broad in their capabilities but unable to match the raw magical might of the sorcerers.

 

[AnotherGuy]

On the other hand, wizards are the literal masters of the arcane, and educated sages of things magical. It's seems odd that some uneducated street rat would far outstrip them at the one thing they are known for being the best at.

I agree with you unless that street rat's name is Aladdin

 

[Maxperson]

I agree with you unless that street rat's name is Aladdin

Even he didn't know what the heck the Cave of Wonders(an arcane location full of arcane things) was, but the Wizard/Sorcerer knew.

 

[CreamCloud0]

On the other hand, wizards are the literal masters of the arcane, and educated sages of things magical. It's seems odd that some uneducated street rat would far outstrip them at the one thing they are known for being the best at.

i mean, all that time the street rat doesn't spend actually learning spells is more time they can dedicate to learning the theory and mythology behind it, i'm reminded of monster's university, sulley who had the scarer's build (knowing magic) but mike who knew all the theory work (arcana expertise)

 

[Maxperson]

i mean, all that time the street rat doesn't spend actually learning spells is more time they can dedicate to learning the theory and mythology behind it, i'm reminded of monster's university, sulley who had the scarer's build (knowing magic) but mike who knew all the theory work (arcana expertise)

1) Wizards learn that theory in part to be able to understand the spells that they learn. That's how they create 2 new spells a level by themselves. If all they did was memorize something they don't understand, they would gain no new spells on their own. 2) unlike rogues, wizards had years of formal education on the subject. 3) neither of those monsters was the little homeless street thief. They both literally went to wizard(scare) school to learn.

 

[CreamCloud0]

1) Wizards learn that theory in part to be able to understand the spells that they learn. That's how they create 2 new spells a level by themselves. If all they did was memorize something they don't understand, they would gain no new spells on their own. 2) unlike rogues, wizards had years of formal education on the subject. 3) neither of those monsters was the little homeless street thief. They both literally went to wizard(scare) school to learn.

It’s still possible for someone without the practical skills to be more learned in the theory of a subject than someone who actually does the things they know about, consider a physically fit athlete vs their nutritionist/personal trainer who might live on burgers and take out

And being a rogue implies nothing about your background and upbringing, a rogue could just as much of been a scholar or a noble previously as an urchin or charlatan and vice-versa for the wizard

 

[Irlo]

1) Wizards learn that theory in part to be able to understand the spells that they learn. That's how they create 2 new spells a level by themselves. If all they did was memorize something they don't understand, they would gain no new spells on their own. 2) unlike rogues, wizards had years of formal education on the subject. 3) neither of those monsters was the little homeless street thief. They both literally went to wizard(scare) school to learn.

Wizards’ spell acquisition isn’t tied to Arcana at all. A wizard without proficiency is perfectly viable.

And a rogue with expertise in Arcana is not an uneducated street rat. At worst, they’re an educated street rat.