D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Scribe]

Yes it is.

Counterspell just makes fights worse(much more boring). It would be better to just have both sides agree to scratch off all of their 3rd level spell slots and then start the fight at round 1. That way you get an interesting fight and both sides feel the effect of counterspell.

Considering the number of rounds? No, that disruption is felt.

Sure. Let's ask everyone who has the victim of counterspell/control decks about how much fun that duel was.

It was glorious.

 

[Maxperson]

Permission isn't the problem.

Boring lame "Counter target spell" is the problem. MTG aged out Counterspell. D&D is still using it.

Every so often I participate in a draft or sealed deck tournament at my buddy's game store. Every new set I see has some sort of counterspell in it. When did they age counters out?

 

[Maxperson]

Considering the number of rounds? No, that disruption is felt.

Yeah. It's felt by taking away everyone's 3rd level slots. Do it the fast way at the beginning of combat and just ask everyone to scratch them off. Or do it the boring way and have both sides counter counters over the counter with a counter. Boring!

This last campaign I ran is the last one that counterspell will exist in. It's gone forever more in my games.

 

[Scribe]

Yeah. It's felt by taking away everyone's 3rd level slots. Do it the fast way at the beginning of combat and just ask everyone to scratch them off. Or do it the boring way and have both sides counter counters over the counter with a counter. Boring!

This last campaign I ran is the last one that counterspell will exist in. It's gone forever more in my games.

Thats fine. I consider 'sit here and accept the spell until its your turn' absolutely devoid of thought. Its Hearthstone vs MtG. I just cannot accept it.

 

[Minigiant]

Every so often I participate in a draft or sealed deck tournament at my buddy's game store. Every new set I see has some sort of counterspell in it. When did they age counters out?

MTG didn't age out counterspells.
MTG aged out the card Counterspell. UU Counterspell: Counter Target spell.

MTG made 2 mana counterspells have restrictions or additional costs or built in countermeastures.

D&D needs to do the same. No 3rd level slot raw counterspell. Counter Conjuration spell, maybe. Counter target spell unless the target spends a 1st level slot or X HP counter it. Or as they are playtesting, Counter target mage, the mage keeps the slot.

 

[Scribe]

Or as they are playtesting, Counter target mage, the mage keeps the slot.

Which of course is fine. Its not about the spell slot lol.

 

[ECMO3]

my thoughts on giving them natural magic damage for weapons was because the other classes have magic damage options; they have alternative solutions when their nonmagic weapons fail, but AFAIK the core class build of these four (i'm including monk even though it already gets the feature anyway just cause it's in the martial class group and if it didn't have the feature already it wouldn't) DON'T have alternate magic damage options without depending on having magic weapons or on other classes to support them.

The non-caster classes have alternative solutions too. This false strawman that martials are only allowed to do P/B/S is part of the problem.

The idea that the core class builds do not have other options is patently false. Every single character in 5E has access to Radiant, Fire, Acid and Poison through holy water, oil and torches, Alchemists Fire, Acid vials and poisons, and because of extra attack and fighting styles martials even using only core class attributes can still use those things more effectively than non-martials can.

Further non-casters have access to other damage types through subclass options they choose, similar to how casters have access through the spells they choose. Take these subclass options if you want to be able to do additional types of damage aside from what you can already do with the basic mundane equipment available to everyone.

This false narrative that martials are only able to do P/B/S damage is the real problem in this discussion. The whole point of damage resistance is to encourage use of other options and the point of immunity is to force you to use other options.

As an example any 5th level fighter fighting a CR6 Vrock can deal 4d6 Radiant damage throwing holy water using no daily resources. For comparison, a 5th level Wizard, using one of his two 3rd level spells of the day to cast Fireball or Lightning Bolt does the same base damage to the demon. The only Wizard spell option I can think of at this level that will actually do more damage than the basic fighter attack action is a 3rd level magic missile, which is only slightly more and it comes at a much higher resource cost.

Let the fighter go nova with action surge and he can do 8d6. Make him a battlemaster with menacing attack and he 8d6+4d8 and force four saves against being frightened. And the resources the Battlemaster used all come back on a short rest.

 

[Voadam]

The problem with acid and holy water in 5e is pretty much the same as with throwing weapons. If a character goes that way for their ranged attacks, how many do they carry with them?

Prior editions had some common cheap magic item solutions for reasonably having full such multiple thrown ranged attacks over a typical D&D fight. 4e had default no extra cost returning thrown magic weapons so any one magic throwing weapon could be used for all attacks. 3e and 3.5 and Pathfinder 1e had cheap quivers of Ehlonna so you could have lots of javelins or spears.

 

[ECMO3]

The problem with acid and holy water in 5e is pretty much the same as with throwing weapons. If a character goes that way for their ranged attacks, how many do they carry with them?

Holy Water and Poison can be made in the field, but more to the point with a weight of 1lb they are pretty easy to carry.

If my 5th level fighter has no magic weapon and an 18th strength and the party is such that the cleric does not make holy water and the Wizard does not cast magic weapon - if those things are the case, I am probably leaving town with 30 vials of holy water, 30 vials of oil, 10 vials of alchemists fire and 10 vials of acid. I would have some type of poison too, but how much and what type is highly dependent on what type is available and how much gold I have.

As an aside I would also make sure I had a weapon silvered and 4 or 5 nets.

If I am gold constrained I would cut the number of AF and HW and increase the number of oil.

If I have an 8 strength or lower I am going to leave town with as much of that as I can carry before being encumbered and if I have a horse, pack animal or pet I am loading that down with a bunch more and asking other party members to haul stuff for me.

I will stress; this is if I don't have a magic weapon, which is the strawman argument presented. If that is the case and the DM is going to throw monsters at us that are resistant or immune to my primary weapons I will need alternative damage methods on hand, so I will make sure I have them. If I manage to find a magic weapon to use, I would cut the number I carry by a whole lot (I would still carry some), but without it you need this kind of stuff.

 

[Minigiant]

Which of course is fine. Its not about the spell slot lol.

I know it's fine.
MTG Counterspell the card was bad design just like D&D Counterspell the 2014 spell was bad design.

BTW UU Counterspell was a cost problem.
2 mana counter any spell and put the card in the graveyard is bad design like 3rd level spell counter any spell and the slot is lost.

I will stress; this is if I don't have a magic weapon, which is the strawman argument presented. If that is the case and the DM is going to throw monsters at us that are resistant or immune to my primary weapons I will need alternative damage methods on hand, so I will make sure I have them. If I manage to find a magic weapon to use, I would cut the number I carry by a whole lot (I would still carry some), but without it you need this kind of stuff.

The issue isn't the resistances to B/P/S. That's upset over the easily visible.
The issue is that the fighter is a weapon specialist with a case of crippling overspecialization.
The supernatural martial is always over the DM dependence of treasure to counter the games monster design.

The lame 5e Hill Giant has over 100 HP and deals 20 damage a turn. And that's only CR 5.
The fact that your basic fighter with a longsword or longbow is dealing 1d8+6 twice against that on the regular is crazy. And not both longsword and longbow, only one of them.

And this is a lame giant with no special abilities and the fighter who is supposed to be the damage dealer of the party. Thus creating GWM/SS/CE/PAM as must haves as the defenses, offense,and special abilities of monster balloon.

Even WOTC who claims everyone loves 5e also says everyone hates GWM/SS/CE/PAM as must haves. And they are must haves because without feats or magic items, your fighter's damage is usually awful.And damage is all the 5e fighter has.

If you play exclusively low level or with 6+ party groups, you don't see this. But that's how this mess happened. The 2013 playtest focused too much on very low levels.