D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Scaling is not really relevant to this discussion I don't think. Who cares if it scales well? 5E is easy anyway once you get a subclass and even if subclass abilities didn't scale at all it hardly matters, you will still defeat most level-appropriate enemies easily. What matters is does the class do what it is supposed to thematically. You could take a fighter with no sublcass and roll through most enemies.

Scaling is a fundamental part of the problem. The problem with martials, specifically, is that they do not scale properly.

Whether or not the samurai subclass, specifically, scales I can't say though (never examined it closely).

 

[ECMO3]

Scaling is a fundamental part of the problem. The problem with martials, specifically, is that they do not scale properly.

Whether or not the samurai subclass, specifically, scales I can't say though (never examined it closely).

I don't think it has any part in a discussion of whether martials "should be mundane or supernatural", and if you are basing your position on scaling you are coming from a completely different place.

You are dodging the entire question and making the discussion about balance, not about the fighter class or martials.

Finally the Samauria and Cavalier scale way better than any Monk, probably better than any Barbarian and better than most Rogues. So if scaling is your thing, the fighter class needs to be nerfed to bring it to a level more equal to those classes.

In another words a fighter subclass that "scales poorly" like Cavalier or Sanaurai or better yet Purple Dragon, is exactly what we need to bring about better balance between the fighter and the other non-casters. There is no reason at all to complain about scaling to slowly on any fighter while these other classes are so far behind, slower scaling is what we need for that!

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

I don't think it has any part in a discussion of whether martials "should be mundane or supernatural", and if you are basing your position on scaling you are coming from a completely different place.

You are dodging the entire question and making the discussion about balance, not about the fighter class or martials.

Finally the Samauria and Cavalier scale way better than any Monk, probably better than any Barbarian and better than most Rogues. So if scaling is your thing, the fighter class needs to be nerfed to bring it to a level more equal to those classes.

In another words a fighter subclass that "scales poorly" like Cavalier or Sanaurai or better yet Purple Dragon, is exactly what we need to bring about better balance between the fighter and the other non-casters. There is no reason at all to complain about scaling to slowly on any fighter while these other classes are so far behind, slower scaling is what we need for that!

Why should we nerf the fighter? We know already that the fighter is quite underpowered. The fact that an even worse class exists does not mean we should nerf fighter to that level. Rather we should move all classes toward the same power level.

Also please don't accuse me of dodging the question. I have already written a reply to this thread (which I quote below as evidence).

I see two approaches to the fighter and they should both be available to the player:

1: The class that isn't supernatural but which becomes supernatural at or around level 7
2: The class that is explicitly supernaturally themed from levels 1-20.

There is no design space for a "mundane" character beyond level 7 or so.

Essentially it is impossible to have a functional fighter at higher level if that fighter is supposed to be "realistic" because realism only functions as shackles. It is pointless.

People need to accept that the only way to fix the balance problem is to allow martials to ignore "realism" at higher levels, whether this means being supernatural or whatever.

 

[Minigiant]

To start with Unwavering Mark is unlimited. I played a Cavalier and this was awesome. You are pretty much forcing everyone you hit to attack you or attack with disadvantage. This is the ultimate defender ability. The disadvantage mechanic is extremely powerful and unlimited.

You mean a worse version of the Marking rules DMG 271

It's main feature is a weaker DMG optional rule + a attack which is a ribbon you can barely perform.

Warding Maneuver is limited, but when I played a Cavalier I rarely ran out of it because enemies usually attacked me anyway and when they attacked others they had disadvantage and usually missed. Honestly I can't remember running out of uses of Warding Maneuver a single time. I am sure I did, but I don't remeber it.

How?

It has CON mod uses. That's Max 5 per long rest. And you need 20 COn to do that.

That said, the relevant question is can you play the kind of character you want to play. Thematically the Cavalier is spot on, and that is what matters, not how many uses of x power they get. If you are not playing a mounted campaign it is less so, but then you probably are not playing a Cavalier for such a campaign.

This is true. The mechanics are flavorful. It's just weak.
Which was my point.

Martials should be able to be mundane for 20 levels.
BUT
WOTC makes weak and/or narrow martial features
SO
WOTC should either design better mundane martials or make all martials eventually supernatural.

Scaling is not really relevant to this discussion I don't think.

It is.
The core aspect of answering the question is how the martials deal with its challengers at all levels and how they display the fantasy at all levels..

The Samurai has too few THP to brush of the increasing damage of monster. CR 5 monsters can wipe off a level 20 Samurai's THP in one attack.

The Cavalier lacks the number of Unwavering Mark bonus attacks and Warding Manevers to do each once per combat and is underdamage if they don't. And it deals less damage than the Champion as is.

 

[ECMO3]

Why should we nerf the fighter? We know already that the fighter is quite underpowered.

No it isn't is average, pretty much in the middle among classes and the most powerful of the non-caster classes.

If you break classes into tiers fighters are in the middle, admitedly at the bottom of the middle, but not underpowered.

The fact that an even worse class exists does not mean we should nerf fighter to that level. Rather we should move all classes toward the same power level.

Right. Move all classes to the middle, more or less close to where the fighter currently is located.

People need to accept that the only way to fix the balance problem is to allow martials to ignore "realism" at higher levels, whether this means being supernatural or whatever.

I apologize for my inflamatory words. I feel many people are turning this a discussion about balance. There are other threads available that are focused on inbalance in the classes and I don't think that is what this thread is about.

 

[ECMO3]

You mean a worse version of the Marking rules DMG 271

It's main feature is a weaker DMG optional rule + a attack which is a ribbon you can barely perform.

No not at all. You need to read the rules. The Unwaivering Mark stacks with the DMG Mark if you play with that and they are two separate abilities.

Unwaivering Mark gives the opponent disadvantage on attacks against anyone except the Cavalier. It is unlimited use.

The DMG Mark on page 271 provides for advantage against an opponent if it causes an AOO, it is also unlimited use. This is on something anyone, including a Cavalier who used Unwaivering Mark can do.

If you play with that rule a Cavalier can do both of these at the same time. Further the Cavalier Hold the Line Ability makes the DMG Mark more powerful and vice versa.

If you are playing a Cavalier and use the DMG Mark on the enemy and he moves at all (not just leaving reach), Hold the Line Triggers an AOO, you make that AOO with advantage from the DMG Mark and it does not use your reaction as per the DMG Mark.

You have this completely backwards - playing with the DMG Mark makes a Cavalier much more attractive, allowing him to use one of his class abilities without using a reaction and the Cavalier can use the DMG Mark when other classes can't.

How?

It has CON mod uses. That's Max 5 per long rest. And you need 20 COn to do that.

Because they are attacking with disadvantage already if they attack that person, and they need to be within 5 feet. It also needs to be either a close hit or a high damage hit or it is not worth using your reaction.

Here is the string of what has to happen to use this:
Needs to be within 5 feet
You need to have your reaction
Needs to decide to attack ally, usually with disadvantage, instead of attacking you.
Needs to hit enemy (usually with disadvantage)
Needs to be significant enough to use your reaction.

That string of things does not happen a lot, especially since this comes online at 7th level and Hold The Line comes online at 10th level and you will be using your reaction on that a lot.

The core aspect of answering the question is how the martials deal with its challengers at all levels and how they display the fantasy at all levels..

Sure and 5E is easy enough thatr they have no problem dealing with challengers.

The only time it is really a challenge is levels 1 and 2.

The current power level afforded to the Cavalier, Samaurai and even Purple Dragon through the class and subclass abilities afford these fighters all they need to handle 5E challenges all the way to 20th level.

If fighters were outmatched by the foes they face it would be different, but they generally arent.

The Samurai has too few THP to brush of the increasing damage of monster. CR 5 monsters can wipe off a level 20 Samurai's THP in one attack.

No it can't. No monster doing any amount of damage can wipe a woth level Samarai because of the Samauria's 18th level ability that prevents him from even being wiped.

In any case not many (any) CR5 monsters could wipe out any 20th level fighter, but of those Samaurai would last longer than any.

The Cavalier lacks the number of Unwavering Mark bonus attacks and Warding Manevers to do each once per combat and is underdamage if they don't. And it deals less damage than the Champion as is.

In most adventuring days they will not have an opportunity to use all their WMs. I have played this class and this is just a false statement.

They can run out of the bonus action attacks, but I don't think most are going to have many rounds where they would be using that and can't. More importantly though they can use Unwaivering Mark every single turn and theoretically up to 9 times a turn.

 

[Maxperson]

Why should we nerf the fighter? We know already that the fighter is quite underpowered. The fact that an even worse class exists does not mean we should nerf fighter to that level. Rather we should move all classes toward the same power level.

Also please don't accuse me of dodging the question. I have already written a reply to this thread (which I quote below as evidence).

Essentially it is impossible to have a functional fighter at higher level if that fighter is supposed to be "realistic" because realism only functions as shackles. It is pointless.

People need to accept that the only way to fix the balance problem is to allow martials to ignore "realism" at higher levels, whether this means being supernatural or whatever.

It's not impossible to have a functional high level fighter. Ignoring that they already function adequately, even if not at the level folks want them to function at, they only issue is that at a certain point their abilities become supernatural.

It's only the mundane(not realism) that "shackles" high level fighter. If you want the fighter to be able to match high level spellcasting, he's going to need abilities that let him swing over here and hit things way over there(like Zoro on One Piece). That's not going to be a mundane ability no matter how you slice it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

People need to accept that the only way to fix the balance problem is to allow martials to ignore "realism" at higher levels, whether this means being supernatural or whateve

I don’t think most folks arguing for mundane martials mean “realistic”. We mean not magic.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Literally "mundane" would be even more restrictive than "realistic," and even more inappropriate to a fantasy setting.

So "not magical" is a more reasonable way to take it.

Not that "reasonable" is any more appropriate to these discussions than "realistic," either.

 

[CreamCloud0]

It's not impossible to have a functional high level fighter. Ignoring that they already function adequately, even if not at the level folks want them to function at, they only issue is that at a certain point their abilities become supernatural.

It's only the mundane(not realism) that "shackles" high level fighter. If you want the fighter to be able to match high level spellcasting, he's going to need abilities that let him swing over here and hit things way over there(like Zoro on One Piece). That's not going to be a mundane ability no matter how you slice it.

yeah, high level gonzo supernatural abilities like jumping good or climbing speeds, actually decent throwing weapons, reliable enemy taunting and AoE basic weapon attacks like a 'whirlwind' spin, except all those things already exist in the game they're just weak or restricted to specific subclasses.

you could very easily make a decent high level mundane fighter, you'd just need to bring together and maybe tune up some of the abilities to scale that are scattered piecemeal across a dozen different classes and feats and builds.