Should Monsters use sneaky tactics in combat??

[OldGreybeard]

One of my players made a comment the other day, saying "that in my games it was always you against us", meaning i use the monsters like characters against the party.

Question: Should monsters be unthinking combat machines, or should the DM use every skill, feat, terrain, missile, poison(occasionally) and item at their disposal to try and beat the party??

I obviously believe monsters should use these tactics, as it helps make boring creatures exciting, gets the adrenalin pumping and helps to create an interesting stimulus.

What say you????

 

[Rechan]

I think the sense of "DM vs. Players' goes beyond how you play your monsters. It's a mindset, especially how you act towards your players. If the players attitude is "Beat the DM" or if the DM's attitude is to "Try and kill/punish the PCs". It's personal.

Remind your player that "The DM vs. the Players" means the players will lose, because the DM has all the power. He can send ninjas to shiv you in the privy, he can give you cancer, or have a meteor fall out of the sky. He can make the entire World jump down your throat. Everything you touch is a cursed item, every door is trapped, and every NPC is setting up an ambush. That's "DM vs. Player".

That's a far cry from the monsters acting intelligent.

I think the monsters nto using appropriate tactics is a bad idea. Especially in a game with a tactiacl element. When you do that, it's not "The DM vs the PCs", it's "The player's characters vs. the DM's characters (which are NPCs)."

 

[Krensky]

One of my players made a comment the other day, saying "that in my games it was always you against us", meaning i use the monsters like characters against the party.

Question: Should monsters be unthinking combat machines, or should the DM use every skill, feat, terrain, missile, poison(occasionally) and item at their disposal to try and beat the party??

I obviously believe monsters should use these tactics, as it helps make boring creatures exciting, gets the adrenalin pumping and helps to create an interesting stimulus.

What say you????

NPCs, whether they're allies, adversaries, disinterested, or bystanders should act in a manner consistent with their statistics (no supervillian schemes from the Int 3 Barbarian; well, no effective ones anyway), personalities, motivations, and capabilities. Sometimes this means they will be cunning, subtle, and sneaky. Other times it means a bellowed battle cry and unthinking charge with an axe against a line of riflemen. This even means that sometimes they will do 'stupid' things because of overconfidence, imperfect knowledge, etc. Animals should also act like animals, not deathbots. Deathbots on the other hand...

There's nothing wrong with them acting intelligent or cunning as long as they are intelligent or cunning. There's also nothing wrong for them to act stupid as long as there's a reason for it.

 

[Chainsaw]

Question: Should monsters be unthinking combat machines, or should the DM use every skill, feat, terrain, missile, poison(occasionally) and item at their disposal to try and beat the party??

Are you talking about a DM meta-gaming with a monster or gimping a monster's natural abilities?

Regarding meta-gaming, I try to play a monster like a monster of whatever sort it is. My rats don't attack using elaborate battlefield strategy, but their wererat leader might arrange various traps and whatnot to protect his lair. Also, I generally don't imbue monsters with character information that they couldn't possibly have - like knowing that a particular character has a certain spell scroll, X hit points, etc.

Regarding gimping, I try not to gimp a creature's natural abilities unless the specific encounter calls for it. If that's the case though, I usually tweak the XP down as well.

Edit: Fixed quote.

 

[OldGreybeard]

It doesn`t help me as a DM, with a group of players who never retreat from combat, even when the monster is either too hard, they are low on spells, previously wounded or have special abilities all characters dislike(like energy/level drain), sometimes the whole point of the encounter is to flee to fight another day.

Point in mind: Said player, is a Half Ogre Barbarian of 9th level so not soft, pulls open a dusty grey stone sarcophagus, disturbing the remains of a long dead priest, suddenly from the broken bones rises a man shaped mist, now i might step back beside the cleric at this point, as its probably undead, nope he waits and attempts to whack it, Inititiative, he strikes and misses 50% incorporeal, it hits and drains two levels, character walks away, player in a sulk.

I didn`t think i was being mean to the players then.

 

[Rechan]

A Dm vs. Player in combat would do things like:

Every enemy has a complex plan, even unintelligent monsters.

NPCs and Monsters are very vicious: Coup-de-grace any time a PC goes down. Everyone targetting one PC until that PC dies (this is especially the case when the player has done something to undermine the DM, or done something significant). Pursuing and murdering familiars or companions, even out of combat.

PCs for whatever reason lose their various class abilities. A DM who engineers the situation so teh paladin falls. The druid loses his companion, or is tricked into using a metal object. Someone steals the wizard's spellbook.

Monsters and NPCs are always specifically chosen to cancel out player abilities. Enemies always have Hold Person and then gang up on the fighter when he pops in. Foes the Rogue can never sneak attack (higher level rogues, oozes/undead/elementals). The Ranger never seeing his favored enemy.

 

[Rel]

NPCs, whether they're allies, adversaries, disinterested, or bystanders should act in a manner consistent with their statistics (no supervillian schemes from the Int 3 Barbarian; well, no effective ones anyway), personalities, motivations, and capabilities. Sometimes this means they will be cunning, subtle, and sneaky. Other times it means a bellowed battle cry and unthinking charge with an axe against a line of riflemen. This even means that sometimes they will do 'stupid' things because of overconfidence, imperfect knowledge, etc. Animals should also act like animals, not deathbots. Deathbots on the other hand...

There's nothing wrong with them acting intelligent or cunning as long as they are intelligent or cunning. There's also nothing wrong for them to act stupid as long as there's a reason for it.

Yeah that.

I'll note that, in the games I've run, the players are frequently surprised to discover that a monster they defeated was such a high level because they used smart tactics and it used dumb (or maybe just hungry) tactics because it was dumb (or hungry). They are just as surprised at other times by how much problem they had defeating creatures a few levels lower than them because those creatures used brilliant tactics because they were brilliant creatures.

 

[Delta]

It doesn`t help me as a DM, with a group of players who never retreat from combat, even when the monster is either too hard, they are low on spells, previously wounded or have special abilities all characters dislike(like energy/level drain), sometimes the whole point of the encounter is to flee to fight another day.

Favorite ENWorld quote: "The slaughter will continue until play improves."

 

[demiurge1138]

Yeah, in this example the player in question sounds like he's just whining. "DM vs. player", as mentioned above, is much more adversarial than "the monsters work the way they're supposed to" (incorporeality, level drain).

And yeah, I tend to have smart monsters and villains do smart things, and dumb monsters and villains do dumb things. I do know I need to have monsters retreat more--although usually my PCs don't let them get that chance.

 

[delericho]

Question: Should monsters be unthinking combat machines, or should the DM use every skill, feat, terrain, missile, poison(occasionally) and item at their disposal to try and beat the party??

If they're sneaky monsters then they should use sneaky tactics. If they're not, then they shouldn't.

So, the rampaging horde of orcs will probably just charge and then full attack. By contrast, those kobolds will use every advantage, every deadfall, and every trap. Zombies will move without thought to provoking Attacks of Opportunity; trained soldiers will not.

Also, some otherwise dumb creatures will be surprisingly effective in combat (natural animals have an Int of 2 or less, but the predators amongst them are extremely skilled hunters and should act like it), while some otherwise highly intelligent creatures will be surprisingly ineffective (a high level expert may panic in combat, for example).