D&D General Should players be aware of their own high and low rolls?

[iserith]

Bad faith is the DM setting a rule that the player has agreed to and then the player deliberately circumventing it. That's not a veto action. That's a player that shouldn't be in that game(or any other).

You keep claiming this mythical "disagreement." It doesn't exist, because every method that I can see of figuring it out involves both being on the same page.

What is this method that would involve the player somehow coming up with knowledge that the DM does not agree to and is not a bad faith effort to circumvent the rule?

But they can honestly be disagreeing, right? I think it's not necessarily true that the player is trying to circumvent anything. They believe their character knows a thing or that the thing they want to do doesn't logically require particular knowledge. The DM doesn't agree. So something has to give here. That you may have never seen this could well be a sign that, on some level, every player under this arrangement knows they have to defer to the DM because it's the DM with all the power to determine they're acting in "bad faith" and toss them from the game.

 

[Flamestrike]

Are you honestly saying a person can't tell if they bluffed or parleyed badly - not an inkling? I've often been in a negotiation (or argument) where I knew a statement or argument was a dud the second I said it!

Well yeah, it's generally obvious when you fail a Deception check due to the reaction of the NPC (and when it's not, that's what Insight is for).

Han: Uh, everything's under control. Situation normal.
Voice: What happened?
Han: Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?
Voice: We're sending a squad up.
Han: Uh, uh... negative, negative. We had a reactor leak here now. Give us a few minutes to lock it down. Large leak, very dangerous.
Voice: Who is this? What's your operating number?
Han: Uh...
[Han shoots the intercom]
Han: Boring conversation anyway. LUKE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANY!

Han knew he failed his Deception check. For all it mattered. He aint getting a re-roll.

 

[Maxperson]

But they can honestly be disagreeing, right?

How?! It can't be due to background, skills, game play or prior roleplay. Where is this knowledge coming from?

I think it's not necessarily true that the player is trying to circumvent anything. They believe their character knows a thing or that the thing they want to do doesn't logically require particular knowledge. The DM doesn't agree. So something has to give here. That you may have never seen this could well be a sign that, on some level, every player under this arrangement knows they have to defer to the DM because it's the DM with all the power to determine they're acting in "bad faith" and toss them from the game.

This is just more, "Maybe they might disagree" without telling a how. What outside of the things above is giving this player the idea that his PC knows something?

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think I-as-DM have the right to narrate how/where/why it went wrong (or how/where/why you might think it went wrong, even if it didn't), and I don't always have external options to fall back on.

I don't think that's true. There are always factors too small or too random to have pre-decided; that's the only reason for using a die with as much variance as a D20 in the first place.

 

[Mort]

Well yeah, it's generally obvious when you fail a Deception check due to the reaction of the NPC (and when it's not, that's what Insight is for).

Han: Uh, everything's under control. Situation normal.
Voice: What happened?
Han: Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?
Voice: We're sending a squad up.
Han: Uh, uh... negative, negative. We had a reactor leak here now. Give us a few minutes to lock it down. Large leak, very dangerous.
Voice: Who is this? What's your operating number?
Han: Uh...
[Han shoots the intercom]
Han: Boring conversation anyway. LUKE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANY!

Han knew he failed his Deception check. For all it mattered. He aint getting a re-roll.

No reroll because there was a clear consequence to falling the check. There is, however, an opportunity to react with plan B.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Edit: Or, $&@%, just have the other players run into trouble of their own while rushing to save their friend. There are so many options other than “no your character wouldn’t do that.”

I mentioned an easy way earlier: ask them when they left. As in, a specific amount of time. Then see if its relevant.

(As I noted, I make people commit to how long they'll wait before following up so I don't have to rewind time, but it doesn't have to be done that way.).

 

[iserith]

How?! It can't be due to background, skills, game play or prior roleplay. Where is this knowledge coming from?

This is just more, "Maybe they might disagree" without telling a how. What outside of the things above is giving this player the idea that his PC knows something?

I believe earlier when you and I disagreed on a particular passage from the DMG, some posters said that two different people can look at something and come to different conclusions. Couldn't that also happen with aspects of what the character knows or whether a given action requires specific knowledge to try?

 

[Thomas Shey]

The irony here is that we have @overgeeked denouncing metagamers as adversarial, and his ally @Lanefan gleefully describing D&D as more adversarial than I have ever experienced.

I can't say that, though its been a long, long time since it was common.

 

[Flamestrike]

No reroll because there was a clear consequence to falling the check. There is, however, an opportunity to react with plan B.

And if the Voice on the radio (in reaction to Hans failed Deception check) instead said:

Voice: Roger. We'll hold off until you get that leak sorted. Good luck down there! (Secretly dispatches a Stormtrooper squad to the Detention level)

Han only gets to react with a Plan B if he succeeds on an Insight check vs the Voice (or I fail my Deception check with my lie v Han's passive Insight).

Barring a successful insight check from Han (or a failed Deception check by the Voice) far as Han is aware, his lie worked.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I can't say that, though its been a long, long time since it was common.

Ok, sure, back in Jr. High when we pvp'd and killed each other's characters. I retract my claim. :-/