Should Players Engage With The Rules?

[Flyspeck23]

I also find it a bit difficult to picture someone making a charge while drawing the weapon (maybe a Iaido master ).

Me too.

And of course there's a core rules work-around for this problem. If a player absolutley wants to draw a weapon in the same round as the charge, there's the Quick Draw feat.
And even then, I'd see them draw their weapon the fraction of a second they begin their charge, not during it.

For running a free & easy game it probably makes sense to not use a grid and no AoOs (doesn't really hurt, if you know that before the game starts, AoOs are not that fundamental to the game, that it wouldn't work without).

Unless one of the players has got the Combat Reflexes feat. That player would feel cheated.

 

[S'mon]

Combat Reflexes - in free & easy game solution, the guy w this feat still gets free attacks on passing NPCs.

 

[S'mon]

And of course there's a core rules work-around for this problem. If a player absolutley wants to draw a weapon in the same round as the charge, there's the Quick Draw feat.
And even then, I'd see them draw their weapon the fraction of a second they begin their charge, not during it.
.

Yeah, the rule makes sense. It's just not much fun for the player who doesn't even get his _one_ attack that round while the archer beside him is pumping out rapid shot full attacks and the Wizard is casting fireball & a quickened magic missile to finish off the survivors...

Edit: To be totally honest, as GM I would normally say, if at all plausible: "You already had your scimitar(s) drawn, right? So you can charge..."

 

[Flyspeck23]

Combat Reflexes - in free & easy game solution, the guy w this feat still gets free attacks on passing NPCs.

So that character is the only one who gets to make attacks of opportunity?

Frankly, if I wanted to play without floor tiles and miniatures, I'd not allow the Combat Reflexes feat, or any other feat that deals with parts of the game that aren't used.
Then again, I love using miniatures

Yeah, the rule makes sense. It's just not much fun for the player who doesn't even get his _one_ attack that round while the archer beside him is pumping out rapid shot full attacks and the Wizard is casting fireball & a quickened magic missile to finish off the survivors...

Edit: To be totally honest, as GM I would normally say, if at all plausible: "You already had your scimitar(s) drawn, right? So you can charge..."

If the person with the bow has got that weapon ready? Sure, then the scimitar-wielder has the weapon drawn and ready too.

 

[MonsterMash]

Ya, players should know the ruiles. There are few things as annoying as explaining the rules to people for the 37th time

I do worry if people can't get the basic D20 mechanic - roll high for success, at least back in the old days it was a bit more difficult to understand the to-hit and saving throw charts and the joys of THAC0.

Got to admit I prefer a bit of a rules light approach and try to allow stuff I see as plausible, so things like drawing weapons in a charge might well be allowed, but wouldn't a lot of fighter types normally be moving with their primary weapon in hand anyway?

 

[Thanee]

Unless one of the players has got the Combat Reflexes feat. That player would feel cheated.

That's why I said "...if you know that before the game starts...".

Bye
Thanee

 

[Mouseferatu]

So, is this what you say when you invite someone to a game? "Hey, i've got this new campaign i'm running and I'd like you to play. But before we start I've got a bunch of big hard back volumes that I'd like you to read. Then I'll test you on the detail to see if your up to scratch to play in my game. Oh, if you don't memorise the rules properly then you are rude and i'll chuck you out of the game."

Personally I say " Hey, come play in my new campaign." They all come around and we start playing. I say, "so, what do you want do do?" The player says "I want to do <insert game action here>". I say "roll'em, you need a 16", the player rolls the dice. The players action has its dramatic consequence, and we all have a bit of a laugh (or cheer or boo or whatever) at the outcome. The action continues and we all have fun.

Is that really so hard?

What part of "I don't expect people to become experts, nor do I expect newbies to take to them easily. But someone who can't devote the time to learn at least the very basics of the rules after playing for a few months, they're better off finding a different hobby." didn't come across right?

Of course I don't expect them to study the whole book beforehand. Of course I don't expect everyone to love the rules aspects, and I bend the rules as much as, as more, than anyone else for purposes of story and dramatics.

What I don't like is when someone who, after several months of playing D&D, still has to be told how to make a Skill check, or still doesn't know under what general circumstances they can apply a class feature they've had since the first game, and which they've used on a regular basis. I'm talking about people where you can't just say "Okay, go ahead and roll" when they want to do something, because even after 12 or 15 game sessions, they still don't know how to do even that.

 

[vortex]

What part of "I don't expect people to become experts, nor do I expect newbies to take to them easily. But someone who can't devote the time to learn at least the very basics of the rules after playing for a few months, they're better off finding a different hobby." didn't come across right?

Of course I don't expect them to study the whole book beforehand. Of course I don't expect everyone to love the rules aspects, and I bend the rules as much as, as more, than anyone else for purposes of story and dramatics.

What I don't like is when someone who, after several months of playing D&D, still has to be told how to make a Skill check, or still doesn't know under what general circumstances they can apply a class feature they've had since the first game, and which they've used on a regular basis. I'm talking about people where you can't just say "Okay, go ahead and roll" when they want to do something, because even after 12 or 15 game sessions, they still don't know how to do even that.

I understand you, I just don't agree with you
I guess I've never noticed rules knoweledge (or lack there of) as being a big deal.
I play games with my friends for fun. Academic qualifications in gaming science aren't required.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I understand you, I just don't agree with you
I guess I've never noticed rules knoweledge (or lack there of) as being a big deal.
I play games with my friends for fun. Accademic qualifications in gaming science aren't required.

Well, I don't think that knowing "D20 + skill check" qualifies as academic.

But more to the point...

A) I have never seen any circumstances under which someone not knowing the rules as I described failed to slow down the game and frustrate everyone else.

B) I game with my friends for fun, too. Sitting around waiting for someone else to figure something out is not fun. I have other nights where I hang out with my friends just for the sake of hanging out; if I'm gaming with people, I expect it's because they want to game. And if they want to game, I expect everyone to offer at least the bare minimum effort to require they aren't impeding anyone else's fun.

C) I honestly can't even fully comprehend your position. I don't mean that to be rude--far from it--I just truly don't get it. I don't see how this is any different than a bunch of friends getting together to play baseball, or poker, and deciding that even after three months, it's okay that Bob doesn't know the rules. There's no way for that to happen without negatively impacting the game for everyone else. Insisting people learn the rules isn't "ruining" anyone's fun, there; it's enhancing it.

Sure, I've made exceptions. I've gamed with people who had honest learning disabilities, and they absolutely got special consideration. But from everyone else, I expect a modicum of both courtesy and effort. Nor would I offer any less from myself. (And for the record, I expect this whether I'm DMing or playing.)

 

[vortex]

Well, I don't think that knowing "D20 + skill check" qualifies as academic.

Clearly your friends are smarter than mine
..but, my friends they are. For better or for worse. I'm not going to get stroppy with them and lose their friendship over a bunch of pernickerty rules that they didn't care to memorise.