Should Players Engage With The Rules?

[Mouseferatu]

Clearly your friends are smarter than mine
..but, my friends they are. For better or for worse. I'm not going to get stroppy with them and lose their friendship over a bunch of pernickerty rules that they didn't care to memorise.

Well, I certainly wouldn't expect you to.

And just for the record, neither would I. I find failure to learn the basic rules irritating, even (under certain conditions) rude, but no, I certainly don't feel it's worth losing a friend over. On that, at least, we're entirely in agreement.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I agree with Mouse. I've had these players in my game before and they are annoying. These are the people that I've had to explain flanking to for the 17th time after over a year of playing. These are the people that I've had to say "Your 4 points of damage fails to penetrate the damage reduction of the enemy just as it did last round" to.

I feel that I shouldn't have to explain something more than 3 times to anyone. I can understand being confused and if, after 3 times, they don't understand something, I expect them to specifically say "Hey, I'm having trouble understanding this, can you explain how it works from the beginning?" Either that, or I expect them to pick up the rule book and read it themselves. Obviously, I can not explain it well enough.

Besides, I like to play with people who really enjoy the game. My style is very rules oriented. To me, when a player doesn't care enough about the game after 6 months or a year to pick up a book and read it, it means he doesn't really like the game at all.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

A) Sitting there while the player above you in initiative tries to figure out what one of his feats does, or what spell to use, or who constantly wants to retcon his action because he didn't understand the consequences

B) Sitting there while the player above you in initiative counts every square to make sure the cone of cold is optimized, or who pores through the rule book looking to argue a modifier, or who constantly wants to retcon his action because he thought of something better

Both ends of the spectrum are annoying. I expect players to understand the basics pretty quick (initiative, rolling high = good) and pick up the rules regarding their character as they go along. Honestly, I've never seen anyone not be able to keep up with new abilities in such over time, which is a good reason not to start newbies out at anything other than first level.

If I've got to remember all the rules for one player, but not the other, someone is getting screwed. Either the player that doesn't know the rules is getting an advantage over a less experienced (than me) player, or, more likely, they are getting screwed because I'll forget stuff too with trying to remember everything else.

Or do you play poker and just have them lay their cards on the table and tell them what to bet?

 

[Mark Hope]

You can be friendly or you can be a rule-nazi (no soup for you!). Take your pick.

There is a middle-ground between these two extremes. What is unfriendly about expecting the other players in the game to grasp those rules that apply to their charcters?

For better or for worse. I'm not going to get stroppy with them and lose their friendship over a bunch of pernickerty rules that they didn't care to memorise.

No, that would be petty (and is anyone actually suggesting such an extreme response?). But you can certainly ask them nicely to take the time to get a grip on the few rules that apply to their character - specifically if their lack of rules-knowledge is hampering the game for everyone else.

 

[Kanegrundar]

I went with option 2 as well. Players don't need to know ALL of the rules for the game, that's the GM's job (or at least know the rules that the game covers), the players should know the rules for their character's abilities. Nothing is more annoying than having to explain rules over and over becasue some nitwit won't crack open the PHB!

Kane

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

B) Sitting there while the player above you in initiative counts every square to make sure the cone of cold is optimized, or who pores through the rule book looking to argue a modifier, or who constantly wants to retcon his action because he thought of something better

Both ends of the spectrum are annoying.

I think I'd like to disagree. As long as people are doing their counting and planning on OTHER people's turns I don't care how much they optimize their spells or look up things in books.

In fact, I'd prefer they'd be able to say when it comes to their turn "I cast a cone of cold, I checked in advance, it affects these 5 people, the DC is 19, and I did 33 points of damage. Don't worry, I made my casting on the defensive roll, I looked up the DC to make sure it was correct in the book."

The alternative is that when it gets to their turn, they instead say "I'm going to....umm....cast a spell...I think. Which one is good to cast here? Can Charm Person work against them? No? Ok, what about fireball? Oh, that'll affect my party too? Can't I put it over here? No? How come? Oh, but if I put it here it doesn't hit them, right? Ok, then I'll do that. What's the DC? I don't know what DC is. Oh, then it's 19. What dice do I roll for damage?" and on and on.

It's a matter of fact that the battles already take too long in my game. The more people waste time by asking 20 questions everytime it is their turn the less actually playing we get done.

 

[vortex]

No, that would be petty (and is anyone actually suggesting such an extreme response?). But you can certainly ask them nicely to take the time to get a grip on the few rules that apply to their character - specifically if their lack of rules-knowledge is hampering the game for everyone else.

And then what do you do if they still aren't rule-perfect. Do you take your books and your dice and go home?

I find in most games there are rule-geeks and there are casual players. In a co-operative game (ie not poker, footy or pool) the players (as well as the characters) help each other out and it works out just fine.

 

[vortex]

I
The alternative is that when it gets to their turn, they instead say "I'm going to....umm....cast a spell...I think. Which one is good to cast here? Can Charm Person work against them? No? Ok, what about fireball? Oh, that'll affect my party too? Can't I put it over here? No? How come? Oh, but if I put it here it doesn't hit them, right? Ok, then I'll do that. What's the DC? I don't know what DC is. Oh, then it's 19. What dice do I roll for damage?" and on and on.

It's a matter of fact that the battles already take too long in my game. The more people waste time by asking 20 questions everytime it is their turn the less actually playing we get done.

The easy solution is to run it like this:
"OK, you're up - what do you want to do?"
"I'm going to....umm....cast a spell...I think. Which one is good to cast here? Can Charm Person work against them?"
"OK - you cast Charm Person - nup, no good. Next."

They'll soon work it out.

 

[Umbran]

Hm. You know, I don't care much if they don't kow the rules very well. I'm a very service-oriented GM. The majority of my enjoyment as a GM comes from the enjoyment of my players. My job at the table is to show the players a good time, and different players have different strengths and weaknesses, just like the monsters and PCs do.

Part of the reason to have the rules is to allow players to play characters that have abilities the people don't. Part of the reason to have a GM is to help apply laws of the universe the players don't fully grasp.

That being said, it depends upon the group as well. If one player who doesn't know the rules is negatively impacting the experience of everyone else a bit too much, then some action needs to be taken. However, I personally won't get tired of explaining. That's part of my job stitting behind the screen.

 

[vortex]

Hm. You know, I don't care much if they don't kow the rules very well. I'm a very service-oriented GM. The majority of my enjoyment as a GM comes from the enjoyment of my players. My job at the table is to show the players a good time, and different players have different strengths and weaknesses, just like the monsters and PCs do.

Part of the reason to have the rules is to allow players to play characters that have abilities the people don't. Part of the reason to have a GM is to help apply laws of the universe the players don't fully grasp.

That being said, it depends upon the group as well. If one player who doesn't know the rules is negatively impacting the experience of everyone else a bit too much, then some action needs to be taken. However, I personally won't get tired of explaining. That's part of my job stitting behind the screen.

A very elaquent summary of the GMs role.